If you can't hear this then you're not an audiophile
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Tuesday June 6, 2023
David Mellor
David Mellor is CEO and Course Director of Audio Masterclass. David has designed courses in audio education and training since 1986 and is the publisher and principal writer of Adventures In Audio.
@SeanWyseman replies to @AudioMasterclass: There is NO problem. It's not a problem at all except to you. Your ignorance is making what is common use into a problem. That's weird - & is not representative of reality in song production. If you're really an audiophile you're stepping outside your field & commenting on a completely different field but spouting ignorance. You're in no position to comment on the recording business & it's techniques - having already demonstrated you don't know your stuff. Other producers have commented here also - producers who know their craft.
@erikbrodin2198 replies to @AudioMasterclass: @SeanWysemanalso sounds perfectly fine in mono so I don’t know what exactly is the point other than to pontificate on needless bs caused by other needless bs
@jamesportrais3946 replies to @AudioMasterclass: @AudioMasterclass - Most entertaining, but I must take a ittle bit of an issue.
I manufacture high-end analog components. I'm also a musician, and have played numerous instruments in bands & orchestras of all denomination. I know what real music sounds like in all manner of venues.
I simply don't quite understand your fixation on imagery. I'm listening to my workshop set-up which is basic & limited, but hilariously good! Everyone is gobsmacked by the realism - I played the CD of a sadly late friend, Nigel Richard; bagpipe builder and player extraordinare. He (without provocation) said it sounded just exactly as it did in the recording studio. Amazing what O/B's and concrete walls can acheive.
My workshop isn't very large - maybe 5 x 7 metres with the O/B's maybe 2.5 metres from me, situated roughly 1/3rd along the 7mtr, with me near the end wall. The OB's & I occupy that 1/3rd the space, the remainder of which is occupied by the apparitions of melodic performance. A nicely recorded small set up even taken from youtube can sound unnervingly real:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mCCMhuKEYw&ab_channel=JasonMraz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIyVu0Ucz8U&ab_channel=SouthernRaised
Well, they genuinely could fit in my room, and they do. Take that second track - the banjo starts right in the far right corner of the room from me. Sounds real - it's there. Rest is kinda mushed towards the centre left with the vocals about a metre forward. Nothing great going on with the imagery here, so why does it sound this good? Without paying autistic levels of scrutiny to imagery (I can feel roughly where it is, and thats no where near the speakers) and I get a strong impression of presence.
Go to the first track. Practically mono. In these sort of live gigs, the speakers could be anywhere but I'm pretty certain I'm hearing the best version taken straight from the mixer desk and post eq-d. Pretty sure it's not the imagery that's doing it for me now?
Neither of the above tracks require ear-splitting volume - you should always listen at realistic levels for acoustic music. Unfortunately for those desiring of orchestral levels of performance, some 106dB will be required.
I don't believe that imagery is as important as you appear to insist. Yes, I have tracks that move backward & forward, left and right. Sure it's a factor, but it's certainly not the most important - otherwise mono would be entirely redundant.Is there no such a thing as a mono oriented audiophile?
@SeanWyseman replies to @AudioMasterclass: @jamesportrais3946 The guy doesn't know his stuff. He doesn't know that there are 3 distinct disciplines & 5 more sub-disciplines that are normally divided up among as many people.
Sometimes you get someone who does it all. But those jobs are divided up - even in the mind of the person that wears every hat. I'm one of them that often does every stage himself because I'm good a them.
But when he enters the dialog with a bold & blatant statement that "you're not an audiophile if you can't hear this" - which is really clickbait because it's false. You can find all kinds of misinformation on YT & this is a perfect example. A guy grandstanding with an opening headline that knows not what & audiophile is. Then says you're not one if you can't hear this. Ridiculous. No audiophile is accurately described as such.
It may be an audiophile who's using his mixing appreciation skills - but that's not an audiophile's domain - figuring out if the mix engineer should have made the right artistic choice. That's not an audiophile that's making those observations even if he considers himself an audiophile - he's not talking about the fidelity of the sound - which is what defines an audiophile.
Why is important to make the correct distinctions - it's not that important unless you want to communicate it to others. Then it's important that you know the roles & definitions or you'll not gain an credibility by not knowing your topic more deeply than the public you are communicating with. This guy doesn't know his topic.
@jamesportrais3946 replies to @AudioMasterclass: @SeanWyseman I'm in your camp Sean, but I'm not certain he needs to be eviscerated 😛 - I can see why you were annoyed, but the guy is trying to promote his channel/business. We only learn through mistakes, and the modern culture of cancellation hardly allows any degree of growth.
I think the guy has 10 years on me which would mean that his formative years would have come from the late 70's-80's when "specifications" sold typically solid-state amplification. Let's not forget that only a couple of decades previously, your audio aspirations would be curtailed by a furniture-centric wife. I've seen "high end" radiograms from the late 60's/early 70's that had speakers, radio, TT, O/R tape recorder, fridge & cocktail bar (seriously!) all built in.
I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. Early SS equipment sounded on the whole shyte but measured brilliantly. This was the era when the likes of Krell was king; megawatts & miniscule distortion combined with practically unlimited bandwidth & vanishing noise. All very nice, but sounded crap. Sandpaper treble, paper mids, bass that you couldn't distinguish from external traffic (you got pumped when you thought a truck on the road outside was part of the plot) and absolutely no depth - your program was nailed to a perspex sheet between your probably three-way speakers with seriously shyte crossovers. Everything we hated about early CD players was encapsulated in this meandering mess.
What that equipment could do was image. Inherently more consistently reproducible semi conductors meant consistence throughout the bandwidth. This means that a fixed pan-point is less likely to wander with varying degrees of frequency. If that's your only selling point, might as well push it - so they did.
Sean, I don't think our man has ever heard a proper stereo soundscape. My experience for more than a few decades has been one that you feel you could walk into. More than a few visitors go looking to the rear wall in order to find additional speakers that aren't there. Funny thing is, being O/B's, they turn around and hear the same phenominon!
I'd like our man to pay a few visits to very different set ups and gain a little experience. His writing, or rather talking doesn't smack of someone who's heard a Class A single ended micro-Watt set-up for example.
Your thoughts Sean?
@RetroBits7744: After you told me what it was then it was obvious, i thought i was listening for some sort of flaw, but yeah i could hear it with just a pair of AKG K240 headphones and a scarlet solo, nothing expensive or fancy.
@mashy712: I see audio as like “food for your ears”.
Cheap audio (usually bass preferred). Is like going to Mc Donald’s.
Audiophile is like going out to a steakhouse.
Both can be good. Just at their own tastes.
@SoundAvarice: The slight shift in the image isn't bothersome - we are already used to hearing the sound bouncing off assorted surfaces in a live setting as the musician moves. But I do think it was a small oversight to omit a mic lower than the bell. While it doesn't matter most of the time (the sound generally emanates from the tone holes), his clarion Bs and Cs lack the fullness of middle clarion (around F and G), which is a shame considering those are the first notes we hear each time the primary theme is played. Incidentally, the wider placement of the mics is necessary because clarinet tone is better when heard off-set - about 30 degrees. The sound directly in front of the instrument can be a bit spare by comparison.
The key clicks are the next most obvious artifact, but they are honest, and I wouldn't bother trying to eliminate them. In all, the playing is captured quite nicely. Kudos to the engineer.
@anonymusug727: Youre not an Audiophile if you dont realize that uploading this to Youtube is an Dumbass Idea because the Audio Quality on Youtube is terrible in comparison to for example TIdal
@DonQuixoteinthecomments: but im not an mp3 i already know that!
@chaosordeal294: The movement isn't particularly pronounced, and I think we're all quite acclimated to stereo. You made it sounds like there was some bashing flaw in the recording, and if anything it all sounds a bit plastic-y, and HUGE tonal ranges are completely absent. The sound is chirpy and nattering, with no presence. But, how much does Youtube flavor the audio here? I'm a music guy, and would never call myself an audiophile.
@chaosordeal294 replies to @chaosordeal294: And by that I mean that I like board games more than most people like board games, but it also means that I like board games more than I like most people.
@TakoShrimp_o23: Doesn't this sound more natural?
close eyes, it feels like they're performing right in front of me
feels normal, not like a recording issue.
Or rather,i don't think this is a problem at all.
@solidsnake434: did you hear it? (me using a mono speaker) no? XD
@vlee3880: Definitely not an audio file. Definitely heard that it sounded like the music was being crowded from different directions by the clarinet. But I didn’t know how to explain or express that. And now I know that that has to do with some things related to recording. I’ve almost learned something – I need to watch a second time to retain it. Lol.😂
@mialotusmusic: The problem I heard is it sounded too compressed, 😂 I heard the clarinet move around but I didn't hear a problem there, It felt expressive. I think it feels closer to the sound of a real concert this way.
@Popsculpture: Oh thank goodness; it turns out I'm not an audiophile. I mostly just heard the sound being pretty centered. I'm so happy for my wallet right now, i was about to make a very ill advised purchase.
@TheDisruptiveYouTuber: I just like music. I'm not an audiophile and even by the end of the video, I couldn't hear what you're talking about.
...and sonperhaps I'm the true type of audiophile. I just listen and enjoy.
@ohjohnny9377: I heard an annoying keyboard clickering ...
@schlizzer: I‘m just a technician. I need music to listen to my overengineered equipment.
@nofe025: My current iems have an very very uneven bite and gain across the two, I have to eq them and it s soooo anoying. No shot hearing the difference, then switching to my bluethooth headphones, the difference was way more clear.
@nofe025 replies to @nofe025: Also, the clarinet overall is very left.
@GaryA26: My only comment would be this. If I ever start to listen to music that analytically, then I should just be put out of my misery.
@RealHIFIHelp: hmm
@anigame8916: 1:00 1:24
@bjorn1122: So I am deaf in my left ear because of an accident that caused a skull fracture that severed the nerves for my left ear. So I can't hear spatial sounds or stereo. What you're saying is people like me can never be audiophiles because we can't hear the stereo/spatial aspect. Dam no suround no dolby atmos no dts x and also never gona have a chance to experience music as an audiophile that sucks 😕 atmos dtsx and surround was fucked up and not able to pinpoint where my phone is when it goes off becouse I can't pinpoint the direction but also never able to be experience music as an audiophile can that is the last drop of my bucket that flows over now 😢
@thunderbucket928: If you can afford, let alone have a board that can handle it, like a NEVE 88R console, I would record with 200 mics in the room. The flexibility of having 200 mics would be a dream for mixing. You could pick and choose close and ambient, a pallet of flavors for the mix. But...only a millionaire can afford to throw millions of dollars for 200 premium makes let alone the 88R, so we can only afford a deca tree with M50's/M49's, Royer tube mics and a few others, in order to best capture the movement of air and instrument. The room, plays a huge part of this. But, with all the nit picking out of the way, if you can record the performance and it sounds natural, then you've done a great job. Too many engineers slap on plugins, tweak with compression and forget or don't understand that recording a symphony is the bare minimum, meaning you record it as the audience would hear it. The only thing you should be mindful of is peaks, acoustics of the room, mic placement, mixing console, cables and overall sonic clarity, preferably recorded at 192 kHz, 24 bit.
@fongsa1yuk: I heard the clucking chicken.
@joicejewerly5579: Lucky I didn’t spend my money😅😅😅 I can’t hear any difference 😂😂😂
@AB-80X: I listen to music. I try to find gear that makes it sound good to me. I have zero issues with people referring to themselves as audiophiles, but for me, that's just a label. If I am anything, I'm enthusiastic about music and audio equipment.
Did I hear what was wrong? Nope, not until you explained it. Why? As you say, the elephant in the room. We get blinded trying to find the fault, which is why I normally try to not be too analytic. If I like the music, that is what means the most. Granted, on a rare occasion, I do come across recordings which I can't deal with. Not as a snob, but because they do in fact make me feel uncomfortable and grate my ears. An example is a lot of U2's recordings. My wife likes it, and even she finds that some of their tracks needs to be heard on gear that will to its absolute best to hide the poor recordings.
@Ma_X64: Well, immediately calling it a problem is obviously an incorrect approach. I didn't consider it a problem at all from the very beginning, but simply perceived it as an artistic decision. Some part of the audioimage moves across the panorama – so what?! I didn't know what kind of recording it was. Perhaps it's from a cartoon or a film, and the movement coincides with a character on the screen. I would probably have been much more bothered by the huge amount of reverberation, which is not typical of modern sound, but, again, I understand that it was done for some purpose I don't know.
@OhmChello: I didn’t read comments and what I heard was a little imperfection almost like a very slight record scratch or skip at the end of you clip. The music was gorgeous otherwise.
@DKLGalactus5: It's not me it's the recording.
@DKLGalactus5: I heard a duck quacking.
@DavisOnTikTok: Is it bad that I feel like I’m not but I take vocal ques when seeing stuff I can memorize how it sounds? 😅 that’s the only way I’m able to distinguish how things sound
@LogDod: I mean I think I heard it, but it doesn’t register as something wrong. I just listened and enjoyed. No way the “stereo imaging” of a solo clarinet is going to ruin my enjoyment of a piece like that. If it does for you, then the problem lies with you.
@tonik28: well i dont consider myself an audiophile and on top of that people told me that i have bad ears what they actually made me think for many years but ig that it is not true bcs i clearly heard that. so probably i can stop being scared of learning playing on any instrument and actually give it a try.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @tonik28: Nylon strung guitar. Six string start there. No lessons, just copy what you hear. Five minutes a day. Come back in 365 and tell us how you’re doing.
@Arnaud-z1d: I actually heard the clarinet keys being used. Pure B&O magic❤
@moenibus: kindly go to hell with your snobbish gatekeeping. you're not the judge of who is or isn't an audiophile. get bent
@Repentfysins: I thought the issue was the faint clicking..
@Pabloesc571: i'd love to see this tested because this is some massive bullshit 😂
@alexandruzainea4591: I have a Devialet Phantom Ultimate...but just one, and it is mono, so I didnt hear it :(
@JustCallMeGlitch: I mean I guess I kinda almsot had it, it didn't have much low notes so at the start it felt normal but then I felt like it didn't come too much in the left and was more focused on the right, I had not once thought it was a note to position problem
@Enter.a.name.stupid: I heard it the first time but honestly I just assumed it was supposed to be mixed that way, since stereo movement is often used to add interest to tracks. Then again, I'm an audio engineer, not an "audiophile"
@FrankieV-i9d: I'm no audiophile and I heard it .The reason I heard it is because I'm watching YouTube on my television and the chair Im sitting in is in perfect triangulation with my bookshelf speakers
@AeroVibess: you can hear little small t sounds (I don't know how else to explain it) of the clarinet during the recording I thought that was the error
@ratreptile: I wouldn't call that "something wrong" it sounded really good, but yes I heard it easily and enjoyed it. If you had said look for this really nice feature, I would have understood what you were looking for.
@Neuro-atypique: This is very subtle !
By the way, I've also noticed some white noise at some moments... Maybe that came from my setup, but it can came from the recording source (and we are in youtube 256 kbps... So, it's not perfect)
@fredstratton2841: I noticed this recording issue on many recordings over the years. Didn't understand why until hearing this explanation. Glad to hear this is merely due to industry standards and artists style.
@denysarcuri1213: I don't give a sh!t if I'm an audiophile.
@arunmohandas9127: I liked the way the clarinet floating all over..😅 felt dimensional
@TheSimulatorSmith: I dunno maybe something is wrong cause I can’t hear it, now I can hear fine details in many other places that support FLAC. Perhaps I just never heard the original to hear any difference.
@NielsdenOtter: Loving your videos! But yes, movement makes it natural, wouldn't think too much of it. These setups are done by pro's so I would def. trust their setup + mix. One other thing, argument so you will to throw in the mix: you mentioned piano....Monk wasn't particularly silent but oh boy his recordings have so much vibe! Do know, or realize, these mic's are know for their capsule pattern. De larger dia. mic, with the ability to be et to omni would make quite the difference...in terms of stereo placement....but not so much in sound.
@MarvinBartlett-lj5sh: I’m not sure exactly what an audiophile is, but “I didn’t hear it.” I enjoyed listening to it, though.
@oliverottis: i thought you was talking about the small "clicks" or something in the backround, almost sounds like somebody left theyr mic on when they recorded that video
@TedoMD: What is that mic scratching noise in the background?
@paulboyce8537: I don't count myself as an audiophile even that after it was pointed out what to listen I can but it is about hearing the whole as different to some other not so good recordings without understanding what makes it different. To hear it also depends of your system. Headphones also are different on creating the stage. For example HD600 is very good for music that is front of you not saying it wouldn't serve on other audio but I personally prefer HD515 for special effects that are front and back on movies where stage and surround makes a huge difference. Lot of the stuff in audiophile claims are pure snake oil that you can't hear no matter how good you claim to be in a blind test.
@Elle_J_D: i was distracted by all that static in the mix.
@jeremyroberts1050: I thought you were going to mention that god awful cd skipping sound in the background. I'm not joking it is there and it sticks out like a sore thumb.
@WybrowTab: i can hear it it says "If you can't hear this then you're not an audiophile" 0:00
@galaxiedance3135: I heard absolutely amazingly when I was a kid and even at a factory I worked at not that long ago, every year we had hearing tests provided and every single year I had the absolute perfect score. I had bought such high-end audio equipment when I was young that I have always taken care of my hearing so I can enjoy it and now even at my age when I am tested I have the hearing of someone around 12 years old
@galaxiedance3135: I could hear sounds from electronic equipment in our home growing up that nobody else could hear except me and even when I was 20 years old I was doing something in the backyard and the house had all the windows closed and my sister's bedroom faced a completely different direction but the moment she turned her computer monitor on I could hear that annoying super high frequency. It actually bothered me enough that I went and bought my sister an extremely nicer monitor just so I could throw the other one out
@prithviraj999-r3k: Me hearing in phone speaker. Hmm.. interesting.😅
@Johnnydammit: I have heard it, now im a subscriber! Thank you for the explanation!❤ I need to learn what you forget 🙏
@Alvinthefrog-qq6yq: I heard it through the Grape Vine
@AdamThorton: You're taste only goes a different way if you're using a 2 mic setup.
@AndyManilow: Audiophiles are rarely players. They should take up a sport instead of focusing on such minutia.
@Alvinthefrog-qq6yq replies to @AndyManilow: As Paul Klipsch said in 2002..."They should get a job"
@John-hk2mq: Audio masterclass, who cares
@moses1202: The dynamic? I think. The second one have louder background cause the dynamic is, maybe, compressed?
@YTT718: I heard some scratch static
@dan-qe1tb: Duh, let's all listen for tiny differences using the lowest quality feed possible
@AudioMasterclass replies to @dan-qe1tb: If you choose to listen on your phone’s mono speaker you might be better satisfied by cat videos. AI on TikTok.
@evilkittyofdoom195: Seems reasonable...
@peddypeoples941: I heard thousands of farts simutaniously inhaled.
@mattie8162: I can hear it on the wh1000xm6 with ldac codec
@martinkifmann6177: Of course this movement well can be heared. And of course everybody with at least some recording experience knows that this is perfectly normal and needed for the artist feeling good. Also if you concentrate on the melody line you easily recognize that there is a strong relationship between the musical pronounciation / phrasing of the artist and the position in the stereo image. So there is nothing that deserves to be called "wrong".
@LordMegamind: I'm going to tell tou one thing: if you don't hear the difference between Morbid Angel songs, you wasted your thosands of money in vain. And you're obviously deaf.
@Kalliopei1024: 1:48, 3 possibilities actually the 3rd is you don't even know wtf ur supposed to hear
@DriverDriver316: Am I the only person who thought the thing I was listening out for in the clip was some sort of clicking like a mouse and keyboard, it was very low but there was something playing that wasn't the music?
@BandBFilms: As soon as he said "here's the clip", it played a Charmin Ad. Did not expect that.
@southernpanda33: I can’t get past the occasional rustling sound I keep hearing periodically during playback.
@andreasstein421: I'm happy to say I haven't heard enough problems to spend more money on equipment or files didn't need. What I heard was a fine piece of music and I'm fine with that 👍
@JOSHUALEVII: nice, lucky i heared it i closed my eyes and saw that moving, or rather heard, i have genelecs the ones tho
@kianfong: I'm sorry you are disturbed by this "problem". I'm an audiophile and I just enjoy the music, sound great to me. I think the problem is that the music is not meant to sound the way it is on your equipment as you intended.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @kianfong: Admit it, you’re not sorry at all.
@mysero1188: i tought it was the wood clapping behind
@63MGB1: I blew it. Was listening to one speaker on a tablet!
@hanhphuc7586: ♥️
@Alex-h4w7b: Was that Peter and the Wolf???
@justchilling1956: Can I blame my cheap audio equipment for not hearing the moving instrument? 😅 Nah, who am I kidding. I didn't hear it.
@pyrolight7568: Can't hear it but to be fair the way speakers are set up everything comes from the middle (desktop so space is an issue). Would have to be wearing headphones to hear that.
@ronniesotoful: There's like a shuffling in the background, sounds like someone typing
@nimarafiei1070: Clarinet sounded awful tbh
@warrenmann-v5t: i definitely heard the noise moving around from the clarinet but didn't think that would be the problem. I thought it was supposed to sound like that! haha. I have the razer blackshark v2 x headset plugged into my mini pc. I have windows sonic turned on as well. guess this headset is pretty decent for 37 bucks!
@antisocial333: I'm literally using a 10$ mic.
Only thing i got was 1st recording was wider than the 2nd
@cdns.unixer: Audiophiles don't exist. Rich people exist.
@nimhbus5465: It’s a shame the video titles and subjects have to be so click baity, because you’re very knowledgeable and interesting
@NateRiver-h4p: I'm audiphile, like hydrophile matters 😅 I don't know any other way of being audiophile. I wish I knew 😊
@BirdbrainEngineer: I didn't even think that the slight panning was a "problem" hah. I personally like when the performer's movements can be heard - When listening to a performer in real life, the movement is heard and is important! It changes the sound and gives it a kind of flowing feeling, so I love it when such variation can be heard in recorded music, too!
@Harman.vir.0987: I guess trying this when one side of my headphones dont work wasn't that great of an idea 🤡🤡
@Justus-k7y: The flute sounds too loud
@Justus-k7y: Something sounds off
@armadilllo: Can't hear it if I can't afford it. I'm not any kind of ...phile, that'll get you beat up in jail. You want to hear something that'll drive him bonkers is Ian Anderson flying around on the stage.
@keelanbrown7747: Me listening with my $25 assbuds, youtube's compressed 251 or 141 format passed through a garbled equalizer and mono audio with one headphone in but still enjoying the vibes:
@MrudangTrivedi: Didn't hear anything, totally nonsense.
@fairplaygaming4725: turned phone to landscape stereo and suddenly 👀 something different
@Kitty1962: I thought it was recorded that way, so it was intentional.
@christophervan6966: I was listening for a technical problem with the sound so wasn't listening to the clarinet, which sounded just fine. Whew.