Do optical cables have a sound?
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Saturday February 3, 2024
David Mellor
David Mellor is CEO and Course Director of Audio Masterclass. David has designed courses in audio education and training since 1986 and is the publisher and principal writer of Adventures In Audio.
@LIL_MAN_THE_OG: many people may poo-poo this, but trust me there are differences. I know that when I run short optical under a foot vs optical over a foot, the result is that the longer line sounds better, richer, less dry...and I have over 20 different cables I can compare between. There are differences...and it's not slight. And when you compare from glass to plastic, the differences come forth even more. Try 20 different cables like I have , A/B them and you will see it for yourself....and these are in no way expensive cables either. All are $25 use and under in price
@Rockit66: There are a few issues with all this, and speculation about what audio philes are actually hearing, But I will start with my computer background and say that in terms of data transfer like bit (0 and 1) there is no such thing as a weak bit. it either arrives, or it don't, and there are so many protocols in place for repairing a corrupt or broken signal that it will either get there or not at all. In the cd world this is not as easy, as a cd player is forced to play either way, so a scratched cd will skip, and is very logical. But for streaming depending on how old your product is and how the DAC processes the information the sound artefacts should be the same as a cd, but I doubt that this exists in newer equptment, but I might be wrong. Anything connected to a modem or such with copper or whatever cables can carry current with them that can affect the DAC, but not the data. So cabled connections can benefit from all the expensive filters and such.
Essentially, using optical and wifi should eliminate all issues, but I don't know how a wifi receiver on a device with dac will sound compared to a direct connection. It may be slightly different if parts inside are in the path that may have an affect.
But here is also my speculative issue with this. People have preferences and like the use the subjective term. So if that copper-infused CAT cable changes the sound and makes it more preferable than a clean optical cable, it will sound better for that person, but you can't say that it is correct. Also, when people are talking about more clarity, and stuff like that. Any variation anywhere in the frequency response will affect the rest. too much bass, and everything does not sound as clear. It still is, but it is not in the forefront anymore. This is the same thing that is happening in the crossover of a speaker, all the resistance affects these variations, hence why many speakers sound different. So what is correct.
People may say that they want everything to sound as true as possible like in cyballs for instance, and I can say after having played in bands, that I would not like the true sound of a symbol all up in may face while listening to music, cause they are incredibly sharp and loud.
So with the lack of knowledge about all insides of a receiver or component used and not even knowing what the actual undisrupted signal sounds like, no one can make a claim of what is better, but we know for a fact that data is transmitted and reconstructed inside the dac. And it will not do so until it has received all bits.
Essentially, this guy has been pretty spot on in that sense, and I suggest that a simple test like using an optical for your CDs may be worth trying even though you have all the greateness that you need. I mean they are so cheap, so why not.
Maybe that is the main fear of the industry. Wifi and optical are too cheap. It does not complement the feeling of knowing all the goodness they have achieved by spending a lot on expensive equipment.
@Paul-D-Hoff: HAHAHAHAHHHAHHAAAAAAAA, optical cable sound....................
@CraigAdams-s9i: EMF has no impact on digital audio until it reaches the point that it’s catastrophic.
@stevegreen5358: How does anyone make an optical transmission system so bad it can only work up to 10 metres at 200kHz? Even 40 years ago we were making systems that did tens of MHz over hundreds of metres. Nowadays we transmit gigahertz vast distances. Likewise, this supposed jitter and smearing would be non-existent unless you intentionally designed the system incredibly badly. Ever heard jitter or smearing on a VOIP call? Or on any audio transmitted thousands of miles over the Internet? No, didn't think so. Perhaps it only occurs with short cables. Only kidding - of course it doesn't.
Even though there is no difference between optical cables I am prepared to believe that audiophiles can hear a difference that doesn't exist. It would be surprising if they didn't, because they can hear differences between electrical cables where no such differences exist.
@arthur_pug: Hey maestro don't you give a tos about sony philips ;)
@leonels101: I use a USB type C thru an OTG adaptor from my phone to my DAC and it sounds better than bluetooth.
@O.D.OBliss: I got clarity, depth, soundstage, instrument separation by cleaning my ears.
@treishtrei: Fantastic how much theory you share in the description link with the Pink Floyd 7 examples. However it misses the most important point, between a basic (3 to 7 dollar) optical cable and a decent ($30-40) entry level cable I can hear a very very very...times 666 :) clear difference. I can even describe it: the cheaper cable missed some midrange (the voices and instruments were somehow in the background behind the bass and highs), with the decent cable having them upfront, on par with the other frequencies. I would never go over this price point as there are diminishing returns and indeed....optical cables matter far less than copper, but they do. Rule of thumb...do not get the "Amazon Basics" type of cables for anything...they might be built well, but they're robbing signal here and there.
@wladimir.Quiroz: And there are people who buy golden plated toslink cables. Hahahahaha
@stephenbrown9998: Bt worked on a diameter of 6inch /150mm
@williamfinch2777: I do hear a difference between spdif coax than standard phono, it sounds much clearer. But I only use toslink for movie audio.
@mikaelmarkstrom6811: I often use SPDIF Optical TosLink from most of my sources I´m listening to and I´m mostly satisfied with them, and maybe one should avoid the most cheap and sneaky cables of those, that are much thinner, but the most ridicoloues I´ve seen is Optical cables with Gold plating What the F....?? Talk about fooling people to waste unnessecary money! 5 - 10 USD for a standard TosLink cable at a few meters are more than enough, in my opinion.
And most equipment of today are using Optical TosLink, such ax AV-boxes, receivers, TV:s and disc players etc compared to Coaxial thare are more rare.
Also, there are measuring telling 75 Ohm digital "SPDIF" Coaxial CAN be better than TosLink, when using good cables with high degree copper or silver with good screeing and in enviroenment/listening room with low EMF/EMI. I´ve also read that USB are better than those both two above, as USB mostly has lower jitter - but for me, I get more disturbance clicking (not jitter) compared to TosLink, from my PC, but this are maybe due to my PC are too old (10 years old).
@MrSlipstreem: The only difference I've found between different TOSLINK cables is whether or not the connectors are manufactured to a high enough standard to stay in without the aid of Super Glue.
@jeffsimon9594: Do audiophiles have a life?
@AudioMasterclass replies to @jeffsimon9594: Of course they do. They have the whole universe of audiophilia to explore. They don't need anything else.
@MuzdokOfficial: jitter is not an issue at all since at least 25 years 🤣
@MuzdokOfficial: Toslink killed the noise effectively for me. even with balanced cables there is still some computer noise from an usb interface unless you have a ground lift. its dead silent with optical.
@georgek.5491: I have found huge differences between 5 euros and 25 euros optical cable. The more expensive cable is better, but I am not sure if a 100 euros cable really worths
It’s a snake oil after a point.
I ditched optical cables and replaced them with 40 euros Coaxial cables. More depth more soundstage and cleaner high frequencies.
@stopher1971: I’d go optical anyday (toslink) for everything (when and if applicable) except speaker cable of course, it’s not hard to follow the bending radius rules, or making sure the cable doesn’t get crushed, mine either just hang or stay nicely coiled up and always a silent background
@CarlVanDoren61: DH Labs Toslink Glass Master 😊
@savagerc5752: Bending of the cable yes, you'll have light loss, but as long as the other end can see light, the data will be transmitted. Most likely you can bend these fibers as aggressively as you like and the light is still going to make it to the other side. So long as the cable doesn't break. Yes you will lose DB and light but it won't be enough so that the other end cannot identify. Yes I have light, No I do not have light, binary code ones and zeros
@savagerc5752 replies to @savagerc5752: And on top of that all this data has tons of packet loss built in it. Even if the data is slightly corrupt it will still come in perfect.
@savagerc5752 replies to @savagerc5752: The problem with light is it does not cover the whole spectrum of sound. It does not have the same capability as coaxial cable coaxial cable is more musical.
@alvarosundfeld: Just bought a gold plated optical connection, of course, to avoid electrical interference. It sounds 0.000001 percent better than my original plastic toslink cable, but I didn’t let the measuring software fool me. In real life, the bass is more present, trebles are clearer, and the audio sounds deeper. Stereo separation became 3 dimensional and, depending on the weather, magnetic fields and local gravity conditions, I can feel the musicians in the room!
@NinaYahsika replies to @alvarosundfeld: I really can't tell whether this is sarcasm or real comment. I sure hope this is sarcasm though.
@mikaelmarkstrom6811 replies to @alvarosundfeld: @@NinaYahsika Frst, it seem´s (s)he know what what talking about such as grounding connection between divices similar as to stereo/coxial connection, but at the end sentence with different gravity contidions - hey, what planet is it referring to?? Gold plated TosLink; talk about snake oil!!
@basbass429 replies to @alvarosundfeld: @@NinaYahsika "It sounds 0.000001 percent better than my original plastic toslink cable, " Should give away the sarcasm 🤣 Which is probably correct measurement between a low quality good enough tos-link and a super expensive top of the line, you will never hear the difference, optical cable. Due to it being optical and analogue quality's do not apply to it. that one bit in 10 million+ bits not arriving, you will simply not hear it. Ever!
@wsmc8275 replies to @alvarosundfeld: @@NinaYahsika
"gold plated optical
connection"
@thepuma2012: there is one other thing: my Sony TV s digital optical output is limited to 16 bits, whereas my DAC can handle 24 bits (which for now i can only have via coaxial cable from my streamer or blu-ray player. Just saying that optical outputs can be a little limited by the equipment itself.
@brendanbenoit: Hear is my home theater setup. 43” Panasonic plasma TV 📺 on a metal & glass stand. 5.1 surround sound hi definition Panasonic home 🏡 audio system.🔌 Im using a Monster cable hi definition single filter power conditioner with surge protector built in for tv & home stereo. All 💯% oxygen free copper multi strand cables from Monster cable.1 Cox cable modem & 1 Net gear hi definition gaming wireless 🛜 router. 1 pc/phone/Internet cable wired in HD Netgear router hard wired in Cox cable modem because wireless connection is unreliable & slow internet connection.I don’t understand why the Monster cable glass TOS link 🔗 optical cable make a louder more clear audio. Using only pure copper cable for home stereo sound system, play a lower sound and the speech 🎤 dialogue from actors,film 🎥 was hard to hear 👂 audio is turned up ⬆️ high?(By the way my 6 year old Monster cable HD power conditioner/surge protector,blew out during a lightning ⚡️ storm ⛈️ in Arizona.It does turn on but make a loud rattle sound.The old Monster cable HD power conditioner/ with surge protection, protect my TV 📺 & Home audio 🔊)
@arthurriaf8052: I've used fiber optical cables for 40 plus years at work in our tools. Many runs were 30 feet or so. At home, I used fiber optical cables to go from my house to a neighbor across the road so we could use our computers to race against each other. F1 game.
That run was over 100 feet.
I use TOS links in my system to connect anything that uses it to my RX A6A receiver.
Just do relaxed bends. It's simple and clean.
Years ago, we cut and polished the fiber optic cable to clear and then put a connector on the end. Love fiber optic and easy to trouble shoot. 😅
@JeffMudrick-os5go: No. Just no.
@wongricky9095: I am not an expert but I am struggle to find an optical cable which can support my 24 bit 192 khz for my current setup. I have tried 4 cables so far, and all of them are relatively cheap (including one from Monster) and none of work works for 192 khz (my input and output devices for sure support 192 Khz). My next try is to buy a multi borosilicate glass optical cable, which costs at least a few times more than those cheap cables (for brand ones like those from AudioQuest the price could be 8-10 times). I believe there should have difference b/w these different cables.
@CarlVanDoren61 replies to @wongricky9095: DH Labs Toslink Glass Master 😊
@josephah2000: I do not tend to believe in snake oil products. But, there was a noticeable improvement, IMHO, when I went from an AudioQuest Carbon to the Vodka line. I am streaming Max files on Tidal to a BlueSound Node II, using a MacIntosh MAC7200 integrated amp (this is where the connection is made), Bowers & Wilkins CM8s2 floorstanders with AudioQuest Rocket 33 speaker cables, and a Rel S3 sub with AudioQuest Irish Red sub cable.
@fredashay: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought TOS Link was digital.
If that's true, then your AI girlfriend is talking nonsense that she can hear a difference between different TOS Link cables.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @fredashay: Betty is quoting other commenters on TOSlink. You should probably correct them if you think they're wrong.
@fredashay replies to @fredashay: @@AudioMasterclass LoL 😀
@laserdiscphan: What I found odd was when I got my first Laserdisc player, a Sony MDP-A3, it had a TOSLink for digital audio output. You'd think Sony would want to use their own SPDIF Coaxial output for digital audio, right?
Truthfully the only time I got a "sound" from an optical connection was when I bought a relatively cheap 5 disc CD changer I intended to help make recording Minidiscs a bit more easy (since you could program multiple tracks over multiple CDs--making recording MDs in real time a snap.) Every recording I made with that changer resulted with some slightly audible tap. I could only guess that the CD changer's construction was a bit shoddy so it was picking up some kind of tapping noise from the spindle. When I used that same optical cable to record the same CD or CDs in my LD player, no tap whatsoever. So that definitely wasn't a problem with the cable.
@JohnDoe-np3zk: Well why would I mess with different optical cables? I got a DH Labs glasslink and love it. Their D750 coax still better than glasslink but I like both.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @JohnDoe-np3zk: Comment readers might like to know that the price I see today for the DH Labs Glass Master is £220 GBP. The D-750 is a mere £41.71.
@simonzinc-trumpetharris852: It's not the cables, it's The associated conversion circuitry.
Nowadays, jitter in no longer a problem.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @simonzinc-trumpetharris852: Tell that to an audiophile.
@williamkleckner9844: I tried 3 Toshlink cables I heard a difference . So, I went back to coaxial. Cables make a difference. Bottom line!
@torbenkristiansen7732: Your ignorance about electronics is second to none, you are unfortunately the downside of the internet and freedom of speech, any idiot without insight can claim anything and anyone with the same lack of insight will agree
@AudioMasterclass replies to @torbenkristiansen7732: You're welcome.
@torbenkristiansen7732 replies to @torbenkristiansen7732: @@AudioMasterclass Not wanting to be welcome, but wanting to totally ignorant
type like you disappear from the debate about hifi from the internet, well anywhere
@torbenkristiansen7732 replies to @torbenkristiansen7732: @@AudioMasterclass Not wanting to be welcome, but wanting to totally ignorant
type like you disappear from the debate about hifi from the internet, well anywhere
@AudioMasterclass replies to @torbenkristiansen7732: OK so you're so clever, which of my facts do you dispute?
@madmeister407: If a cable is a cable and has no influence on sound, then an amp is an amp, a cd player is a cd player, a speaker is a speaker, a turntable is a turntable or are they. Why do people buy different equipment based on their preference on sound or manufacturer when in theory they all do the same job. Based on common theories that cables do not make a difference then that theory must be applied to every other piece of equipment. Unless that is, there is a difference.
@madmeister407 replies to @madmeister407: @nicksterj I do believe that's what I'm inferring.
@memcdm replies to @madmeister407: There are radical differences in all the components that have nothing to do with wire or connects. Speakers are quite obviously different. The design, quality and type of the many individual parts to amplify a very small signal to obe strong enough to drive speakers or headphones or whatever.
@ZeusTheTornado replies to @madmeister407: It must be a pain to be that dumb
@magnot9884: I've been using digital cables for nearly two decades now, primarily optical but also coaxial. Until recently, I didn't really think much about it; I just assumed that every '0' or '1' transmitted would be received flawlessly. I figured any lost or misread data would result in audible distortion. However, it's a one-way communication system with no error checking involved. Even if a bit or several bits were to flip in a digital audio stream, chances are you wouldn't even notice it. I haven't experienced any issues with digital connections personally, but that doesn't guarantee they're flawless in terms of transmitting every bit accurately. Recently, when I had to resort to using an analog line out from a laptop, it reminded me of the significant distortion problems associated with such connections.
@Justas-M: I heard a difference in optical cables: https://youtu.be/AVZwHUkGKZo
@andrismorozovs2399: Do not speak about sound differences but listen a sound differences !!! :) Even optical cables sound different !!!
@multicyclist: Toslink cables standard is plastic and is low grade for short distance only. Toslink is basically just a powered LED added to the SPDIF coax connections on the sender and receiving ends of each piece of equipment. It is a one way transmission only with no error correction the same as.a SPDIF connection There is or can be no audible différance between SPDIF coaxial or fiber Toslink as long as the rather limited Toslink bandwidth is not exceeded. Coaxial SPDIF has a higher bandwidth and is less likely to generate errors or Jitter than fiber Toslink, but are functionally similar. Totally fine for CD but not ideally suitable for very high bitrates. While Toslink seems to work on a 24/192 audio, in actuality it is beyond its spec and generating errors/jitter which may or may not be corrected by your DAC. For the higher bitrates, it is better to just use copper.
@peterwollenberg4905: For reasons I am too ashamed of to make them public, I bought two 5 m optical cables to connect the output of a sonos player to my DAC. The listening experience differed remarkably between the two of them. One sounded quite nice, as expected, the other one only produced silence, no sound at all! So there may actually be differences between brands.
@thepuma2012 replies to @peterwollenberg4905: perhaps a one way cable wired the wrong way?
@mrsurname9217: How long before the audiophools start telling everyone that the optical cables need time to "burn in" before they sound right?
@AudioMasterclass replies to @mrsurname9217: It wouldn't surprise me if you could buy an optical burner inner.
@georgelewis3047: Mr. Mellor, your assistant Betty has a brilliant future in the fine wine tasting and reviewing industry. For you however, I see no hope.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @georgelewis3047: Don't worry. I'll stick to beer.
@mat.b.: I have discord Audio Phils telling me to replace my WiFi with cables, but not ethernet cables (oh no), with fiber optic cables connected to converter boxes each with their own Linear Power Supply....which are then connected via ethernet to the router and streamer respectively. Apparently this reduces noises and enhances blackness, or something. And it's galvanically isolated, unlike wifioh wait...maybe wifi has noise from the air?
*I realize this isn't in the scope of Toslink, I just didnt think optical data would come up in audio recommendations until now and thought of this video
@AudioMasterclass replies to @mat.b.: Wait until audiophiles learn about ethernet collisions.
@Hellseeker1: Been using lightpipe for years, never once had an issue.
@tomstrum6259: Can't wait for the "Optical Ready" tech to take over Audiophiledom ! ....Originality, Digital & Optical was said to sound too Analytical, Harsh & Brite compared to more Natural sounding "Warm" pure Analog equipment....Hmmm.....Maybe Laser "Designer" color Filters will be the Next rage....Redish laser for more "Warmer" Harmonic sounds thru Green smooth "Mids" to Brighter defined "U-Viloet" light Filters....Maybe Laser "3 Pack" Filters for the Quick-Change !!!
@slevengrungus: I am genuinly facinated by how much you're willing to entertain the audiophiles arguments on this subject, since you clearly know they are false.
Doesn't it get excruciatingly boring having to keep arguing why digital audio cant sound anything but flat?
Like thats the entire thing about digital. Its quantized, any loss of frequency doesn't matter as long as the individual bits are still readable. It can be restored perfectly.
Claiming that a digital audio signal can be colored by its cable is like claiming that different qwerty keyboards can add subtle changes to your font.
I do not have this kinda patience for this kind of thing.
Its like if someone was convinced 1 + 1 = 4, and denying this deeply upsets them because of their emotional attachment to the idea.
I would disassociate real quick
@AudioMasterclass replies to @slevengrungus: The older I get, the less I believe or disbelieve anything. I have in mind a test of optical cables for a future video where we may, or may not, hear something.
@slevengrungus replies to @slevengrungus: @@AudioMasterclass I must admit that I am very intrigued to see your solution.
@MGoudsmits: It is by definition that any means by which digital, within specs, is transported has no influence on sound quality. The idea that optical could have an effect is total BS and would prove the one making the claims unfit to have any opinion on HiFi
@BreeeBreeeBreeeBreee: Optical cables are made of glass. Glass is HIGHLY resonant. So yes..... optical cables do carry added frequencies which equate to sound.
Noisefloor. Another one of the many boogiemen created by YouTube Audio Engineers.
Sure helps sell those 300 dollar plug ins modeled after 6000 pieces of gear though.
@savagerc5752 replies to @BreeeBreeeBreeeBreee: Definitely wrong. Fiber does not carry any frequencies. Frequencies cannot ride on glass optical cables and data through binary code light meaning one no light meaning zero the laser shoots off rapid fire combinations of data. There is no frequency at all. It's only do I see light or do I not see light.
@lancewood1410: The only time i can hear artifacts in a recording...i can only blame it on bad recordings.
@hulksmash6476: Big portion of you streamers are using fibre optic to your residence, tidal, qobuz etc. Huge distances ok but a 1m not good enough for you?? Don't cheap out though because borosilicate glass one made big difference in my system. Don't use cheap plastic ones. The one going to your house are regulated and of high quality.
@lepidoptera9337: All cables have a kind of hissing sound to them. It starts with what you get when you pull your jaw back and your upper teeth are resting over your lower lip. Kind of like in "f-ish". It's then followed by an eerie ghostly sound like in "sw-oo-sh" and it ends in a guttural "l". :-)
@andysummersthxcinemaandmyc7748: do you even have the lucasfilm ltd THX sound system , no that isn't home version , professional cinema , so your home cinema you ain't hear it all , expect down here
@lepidoptera9337 replies to @andysummersthxcinemaandmyc7748: I do have a massage chair, thank you. It does wonders for my back. ;-)
@alexc-ex1cx: Phreaking.
@peanutbutterjellyjam2179: BREAKING NEWS!!! AUDIOPHILES ARE FULL OF SH!T!!!
@ericquasney8832: Got pro tools summer 1998 chose QS 8 for house keys, came with fiber option . We decided
Against at the time because it
Was another thing to interface.
They never came up anyway. As
Always great review. 🙉
@axymoulm: I still use Toslink these days. Connecting my Computer to Amplifier via Line Jack brings noise and hum but as I go through my old Sony Mini Disc MDS-JB920 via Toslink, the sound is crystal clear and free of any audible distortion. AND: I don't need a dedicated audio interface to record my Romplers to Computer using the MD deck the other direction. Next thing I'm gonna do is record some samples of my old Roland SRX-08 board and they're gonna be in original quality because they go through Toslink.
@fernandofonseca3354: yes if you drop them over a snare drum...
@lepidoptera9337 replies to @fernandofonseca3354: Two rhythm sticks up.
@alvarosundfeld: Yup, I surely can hear a 0.000004% improvement when I use gold-played optical cables.
@mariokrizan399: 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
@barlow2976: I can tell you're an audiophile from watching the slow, almost imperceptible head movements you make as you listen. I am not an audiophile, indeed I've only just discovered what a dac can do, and previously listened to my files on Logitech P.C speakers. I can see you wince. I've upped my game with seperate vintage amp and cd, and added a WiiM streamer, plus some budget Wharfedales that sound wonderful to my unrefined ears. But now I'm worrying about earth loops, and like a post here I can hear my big freezer (outdoors in the barn) kick in, as a tiny click. That has started to annoy me, even though it has only happened a handful of times, which is why I'm here. I've started wrapping power bricks in foil, and have sorted the whole mess of cables behind my study desk. Bear in mind that's with a sub £500 system- what would I be like with more revealing gear? Is there any end to this? I'm hearing or imagining stuff and am currently looking for someone willing to sit and rip my cd collection to FLAC, because the entire 120GB is on MP3, and now they sound dreadful. I can't use my wireless earbuds in the gym anymore they sound so poor after my Shure IEMs I bought used on eBay. I am currently thinking of ways I can explain to my wife why I need, at the very least, budget audiophile speakers. It's a disease, but it's got me listening and enjoying my music more than I have for thirty years. Thanks for your great videos, I love your presentation style.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @barlow2976: "But now I'm worrying about earth loops, and like a post here I can hear my big freezer (outdoors in the barn) kick in, as a tiny click."
That little click is not an earth loop, it is your freezer posting a spike or crushing a couple of cycles of AC. There might actually be a problem in the motor start circuit in the freezer.
If you had an actual loop you'd know it... your system would be humming at either 50 or 60 hz depending where you are.
@Csnumber1: I just went on Amazon and looked up: 'Pure Glass Optical Toslink' - Unique Products Online 3Ft. Toslink Glass Digital Audio Constructed from 280 Individual Strands of Glass ensures The Least Signal Loss
@AudioMasterclass replies to @Csnumber1: Comment readers check it out here - https://amzn.to/4buTw52 (affiliate link).
@lepidoptera9337 replies to @Csnumber1: That might actually work, if done right. It won't change the quality, but it would allow for much longer cables. Plastic fiber is severely limited in length.
@GiancarloBenzina: The question is not if wireless cables have sound it‘s whether glasses mounted on your nose and ears have sound or not or if the combination of wireless cables with glass hanging from your ears do have it.
I am sure my wireless rear end system has sound, just like any other music instrument. ;-) LOL
@michachemowski8518: I come from an IT background. And no one ever has questioned the integrity of the cables transferring data over networks. And in some applications errors of literally one bit can render a file unreadable (encryption for example). If that works and always works in the same way I fail to see how a digital interface could cause any differences in digital audio transport if the actual cable isn’t faulty or damaged.
@michachemowski8518 replies to @michachemowski8518: Someone commented that latency is an issue using a stockbroker analogy but that comment seems to be gone. However, in a digital audio setting the latency can be and is easily remedied with a buffer.
@lepidoptera9337 replies to @michachemowski8518: @@michachemowski8518 The server latency thing in stock trading is actually an abuse of the system and should be regulated. In audio reproduction none of this matters. It does cause a design problem with digital effects processors because oversampling ADCs and DACs have significant pipeline delay. Unlike pipeline delay in e.g. recording consoles effect processor delay that shows up in real time can not be easily removed.
@richardgrumbine4867: I used optical cables for a long while to connect my digital items to a DAC… but have since switched to coax… easier to get the cables for one thing and they are cheaper… and a digital coax connection can carry more information and also may provide some grounding benefits… It can support higher quality audio up to 24-bit/192kHz. Optical is usually restricted to 96kHz. But I guess that if the signal is less then 96kHz then probable makes no difference, To be honest I could hear no difference in my system. But when I have a choice I go coax.
@lepidoptera9337 replies to @richardgrumbine4867: Coaxial cables are connected through insulation transformers (or should be), so no "grounding benefits". The transformers also negate the jitter benefits of a coaxial connection. I have a 192kHz optical sound card, it just doesn't work because the drivers don't work any longer.
@obscurazone: Sooooo, I have a cheap n cheerful Onkyo integrated amp (A9050) and my only "source" (so to speak) is a Raumfeld connector streaming box. The amp has a Wolfson DAC built in and the Streamer has a Cirrus Logic DAC - both dacs play 24 bit/192kHz. Where it gets interesting, is if I hook the amp up to the streamer using both the line out to RCA, and also the optical S/PDIF. I can then switch the inputs during playback using the amp remote control, and there is a very clear obvious difference! Using the the RCA means that the streamer DAC is used, but using the digital route means that the amp DAC is used, but as far as I'm aware these two DACs are roughly the same. However, using the digital cable the sound is way better! Everything is clearer - really noticeable in vocals, and the music just has a more forward presence. Using the RCA/streamer DAC route sounds duller and muffled! So to that end - and I really don't know if its the DACs influencing the sound, or the cables, or the combinations...BUT there is a very clear difference in my budget set up using the digital cable. I was quite astonished :-)
@thepuma2012 replies to @obscurazone: I think you are mainly comparing the two DAC s , and the RCA cables used can have a little bit to do with it also.
I have had that raumfeld connector to, and it sounded quite well for the money. But honestly, they are both budget systems and probably thats why they sound so different.
@grantdubery8001: In theory there should be no difference in sound quality when sending a digital signal over copper, glass fibre or plastic fibre, so long as the cable used meets the specification of the equipment manufacturers being used, and there is no damage to the cable. It shouldn't be possible to hear a difference.
@maidsandmuses: Judging from the comments so far, I would say at some point an educational session re. synchronous vs asynchronous digital connections is called for David...
Quite a few commenters do not seem to realise that beyond the correct values and order of music data samples, the sample interval timing is also crucial, something that can definitely be negatively affected in a synchronous data connection like TOSLINK (SPDIF), e.g. by cable quality/length but also by the quality of the optoelectronic components used. This jitter may or may not be audible but to deny its existence ("it either works or it doesn't") shows a lack of engineering knowledge.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @maidsandmuses: This is an interesting point, as raised in one way or another by other commenters. Regarding jitter, I don't think an optical connection does either work or not work. I think the point where there is audible distortion or noise due to jitter is very close to the point of 'not working' At present however I don't know how to test this.
@gurratell7326: Short answer: No.
Long answer: No.
@adam872: That anyone would think there is a difference in TOSLINK cables, beyond whether they work or not, is laughable.
@Douglas_Blake_579: The cables won't have their own sound ... the electronics decoding the signal might.
@xiaokang8692: When someone states he can hear "sibilants lower by about 1%" he must be cyborg with Musk's brain link to measurement equipment or he is just stupid.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @xiaokang8692: If I could hear sibilants lower by 1% in any system I'd rent out my ears for $$$$.
@LarryCook1960: I've found that by wrapping the fiber that enters my home with Reynold's Heavy Duty aluminum foil, when I listen to Slim Whitman on my favorite internet station, I get an improved sound stage when he cuts loose with a power ballad. 🙃
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @LarryCook1960: But did the Martians' heads still explode?
(Edit: Watch "Mars Attacks" for the reference.)
@AudioMasterclass replies to @LarryCook1960: I don't mind Rose Marie once in a while, with or without the foil.
@fonkenful: Don’t forget that you need to cryo-treat your optical cables as well as elevate them from hard reflective surfaces with aerogel blocks. 😂
@AudioMasterclass replies to @fonkenful: Don't forget to protect them against high-energy neutrinos from the galactic plane.
@steveducell2158: There was a speaker at the Rocky Mountain Audio show who stated that in Computer Audio, different Hard Drives will have a different sound. It always amazed me that no one in the audience choked on that
@johantheron4282 replies to @steveducell2158: We all know that a computer generates all kinds of electronic noise that isn’t a problem for normal computer tasks but is for high fidelity audio.
Could it be that the electronic components in a specific HDD brand or model generate some interference or electronic noise that somehow gets into the DAC and degrade the quality of the signal on the output stage of the DAC? So much so that it is audible.
So it is not just the ones and zeros being read off the disk but also the other artefacts introduced by the electronics in the HDD.
@LelandPratt-j4k replies to @steveducell2158: Replaced the old front hard drive with an SSD on my Mac mini. Noticed better sound right away.
@johantheron4282 replies to @steveducell2158: @@LelandPratt-j4k Very interesting! That seems to confirm my suspicion.
@lohphat: It’s no different than Ethernet over copper or glass.
Bits go in, bits come out the same. Unless there’s damage and error correction can’t fix things.
As long as the bits are mostly unmolested, there will be ZERO differences between media types.
Digital is digital.
@mephitusincognito7918: Honest to God I didn't know this would be a topic, that said, you can literally just stick a red LED into a toslink receiver and as long as the LED is connected to something (with the correct voltage for the LED) that speaks toslink it will work... Do optical cables have a sound? Not that I have ever heard. Only argument for glass over plastic is cable length (very, very long runs).. a 3ft plastic cable going from a CD/DVD/BD player to the receiver isn't going to change a thing unless the cable is broken which is something you can literally see... no light no audio... as for your link to the sound of jitter.. ive never heard a CD player make those kinds of noises other than in my youth when i barely touched the edge of a playing disc and caused the player to produce static with the music for half a second before it stopped the audio and re-corrected itself.
@teashea1: hilarious ----- One needs the diamond strand cables that have been impregnated with phantom neutrinos
@AudioMasterclass replies to @teashea1: You're still going to have to worry about faster-than-light particles. They'll spoil your sound before you've even listened to it.
@teashea1 replies to @teashea1: @@AudioMasterclass True.
@maidsandmuses: TOSLINK uses SPDIF which is a synchronous data connection. This means the master clock is sent along with the data and jitter will be introduced, dependent also on the quality of the TOSLINK components and TOSLINK cable length used. The receiving component can be designed to buffer the incoming SPDIF data stream and resynchronise it to an internal master clock, but at some point that would require drift correction; there is no free lunch. In practice many receiving components do not buffer, and due to dispersion in the relatively low-grade TOSLINK cables and optical transmitter/receiver geometry means that over long TOSLINK connections jitter will become measurable, although it may not be audible before the actual data error rate becomes excessive.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @maidsandmuses: It was a long time ago, but I remember a device that received digital audio from a remote source and had to synchronise. It worked fine as far as I could tell, apart from the occasional click which, from what you say, I might assume to be drift correction. My memory is quite dim so that's all I have right now but it might be a matter I can consider for a future video.
@maidsandmuses replies to @maidsandmuses: @@AudioMasterclass Well, if memory serves me right then Naim had (or still has?) a DAC that uses 10 slightly different fixed master clock frequencies and keeps switching between them to maintain the same average clock frequency as the source; sort-of a continuous drift correction on-the-go. Presumably this does leave some level of jitter, but probably with a different (perhaps more benign?) noise frequency spectrum.
@johantheron4282: I have recently purchased an AudioQuest Cinnamon Toslink cable which I use between a Marantz Ki Signature CD-63 Mk 2 CD player and a Chord Mojo 2.
This gives me “galvanic isolation” between the CD player and the DAC, so electrical noise can’t be transferred between the components - as others have experienced and described in the comments.
To be able to run a Toslink-coax comparison, I will first have to buy a Moon Audio coax cable that terminates in a 3.5mm jack which goes into the Mojo 2.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @johantheron4282: Galvanic isolation (i.e. no electrical connection) absolutely does not prevent noise which can be and often is transmitted by the toslink encoder.
What it will do is prevent a ground loop between two devices.
@johantheron4282 replies to @johantheron4282: Is there a technical report somewhere on the shortcomings of the Toslink encoder?
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @johantheron4282: @@johantheron4282
I'm sure there is. They probably exist inside Toshiba during product development and other companies as well. But you should not need some voluminous document to understand that A) any circuit will transmit it's noise on it's output and B) noise on digital signalling is largely insignificant... That's just basic electronics skill.
@joshua43214: I use optical ethernet, not toslink between my server and my DAC. The cable runs along the wall under a dimmer, past numerous power cords, some of which have equipment with switching power supplies, and then up into my stereo rack past more power cables.
Switching to optical over standard ethernet was very noticeable.
I hear no difference between cables that are not damaged and made to spec.
Damaged cables are very easily heard by ear as well, and sound like sibilance. Optical can not introduce jitter, only the hardware at the ends can do that. I had a cheap Amazon cable and you could hear the change in sound as you bent the cable. It is expensive to make cables to spec, I won't say that "audiophile" cables are needed, but cables made for professionals are, and should only be sourced from Western sources.
Optical has very strict standards regarding bend radius, coating on the fiber, and end treatment (perfectly polished and square). Defects are very measurable, and losses are also easily measured due to bending. The 10x diameter to quoted is way too tight, the cables I have used usually state something closer to a 6" (150mm) radius. The 50' (15m) optical HDMI cable I use for my projector clearly states that any bend under 5" permanently damages the cable.
@eDrumsInANutshell: Basically for me... All digital transfer way are like... It's there, or it's not there.
If you're put of sync or drop outs, or errors, something is wrong.
@clicks59: David, thought you might dig this one. It was one of my college classes recording projects.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y_AKVZDcKk
@Declan4253: I can actually add something useful to this conversation! Maybe. I work on ships after having left a job in investment banking some years ago. My last ship and probably future ships lay or repair undersea fiber optic cable.
Here is the relevant bit...maybe. The signal does degrade with distance and this is remedied by something called a repeater. The repeater takes the signal in, boosts it, and sends it on its way. How it does this, like much of the system, is in the industry called PFM (Pure F-ing Magic). The distance between repeaters, however, is measured in miles or kilometers, not meters; many miles and many kilometers, not 10 - 30 meters. I know you ruled out the length of cable as an issue, but I wanted to point out that it is laughable to me that it could degrade in a home audio setup because of distance. The importance of not bending or crushing it is certainly an issue, but we bend it within the limit under pretty massive amounts of tension (weight of the cable times many miles of cable down to the sea floor), so it does not need to be babied Obviously we are working thicker cable so it can be bent less, but it was shocking to me how small the cable is even between countries worth of data traffic. Remember, we are talking about flashing lights at different wavelengths moving at the speed of light. It either works or it doesn't is the answer.
@MegaGoat replies to @Declan4253: Can you get over well over 10 meters by orders of magnitude pretty easily on the base ~3.1MBit rate spec?
There is plenty of modal bandwidth to do so, but the attention is around 180dB/km (0.18dB/m), which is around 500 to 1000 times what you can get on singlemode (wavelength dependant) and the link budget isn't going to be very big.
It is not designed to deliver audio across a city, but part way across a room.
It is cheap, robust, easy to connect, eye safe.
@tibsyy895: I definitely want optical connection for my future Hi-Fi!
@abelmagwich5803: Hi David could you turn your expertise to a comparison of linear and switching power supplies and perhaps Phil could extol some virtues of the former assuming that the linear variety moves us all further towards audiophile nirvana. Thanks for your precise presentation on all matters audio
@AudioMasterclass replies to @abelmagwich5803: Phil runs everything in DC from a stack of lead-acid yacht batteries.
@TheEulerID: There most certainly is an optical analogue to electrical resistance, and it's normally referred to as attenuation or signal loss. The amount varies widely according to the type of optical fibre used and what it is made of. The sort of plastic polymers used in TOSLINK have very high levels of signal loss, whilst those used in very long distance optical fibres are very low. Of course none of this matters a jot where digital data is used up to the point where the loss is so high that the signal is unusable. However, that's just the same with copper as well. There are also other forms of distortion that can occur with optical fibre, such as dispersion, but again it varies hugely with material and implementation (it is, however, particularly bad on TOSLINK fibre connections). However, that only affects range and speed and not data integrity when used digitally.
Note that there are situations where optical fibre is used in a purely analogue manner, such as some types of borescopes (not the ones where there's a small camera at the end), but that's pretty rare, and none of them are relevant to audio. Nothing to stop it being used that way, save it's stupid, but it could be done. However, on key difference with electrical analogue is that there would be zero difference in frequency response for analogue optical signals at audio frequencies.
@RaymondReeves-db8dr: Three short answers No No No. Digital cables do not transmit a sound, they transfer data. Perhaps David can explain the difference between sound waves and data. Apparently HDMI cables are capable of higher audio resolution and video simultaneously.
@glennlove461: Ya, get Phil to do the tidy up
@IndigoDavei: I have used TOSlink cables in the past, but I'm not a fan. The reason is that the cable's plugs seem to fall out of their sockets all too easily. No sound? Why? Oh, the TOSlink has fallen out. Of course, that could be due to user error.
@34332 replies to @IndigoDavei: 😂😂😂
@MakingURT: I make and record music for fun in hopes of more and I tested many different ways to go about recreating the exact sound my computer makes for the listener. I have optical and coax outs from the same sound card and I found when recording the exact same song played through optical the transients would peak a tiny bit higher, co-ax was slight more rounded. The average listener might* notice the high end is ever so slightly clearer/crisper. Or also it could just be how my system reacts!
@martinpaling1989: I am using a 15 metre Toslink cable between my wall mounted TV and a Linn DSM Selekt connected to a Primare i35 amp, itself connected with 10 m cables to a pair of highish-end Falcon Audio floor mounted speakers. OK, this is not a pure hifi arrangement because of the source limitations but it is certainly better than the Naim Muso, also connected to the TV optically. And the Muso is pretty impressive anyway and fine for TV channels. I only use the more upmarket arrangement when playing bluray concerts or opera.
@nikosuoa: Cheap toslink cables are the best for digital sources, flawless sound and no interference...
@nikolaki: I have a chest freezer that is almost 30 years old.
When its thermostat turns it off it emits an em pulse that is picked up by my guitar pickups or, any cables transferring analogue audio on my hifi as a pop or a click.
Back when I had my amp connected via an rca cable and the sound was transmitted digitally, the chest freezer clicking off would cause a brief pause in the sound.
Same amp hooked up with a digital optical cable- no pause.
That's it, that the only tangible benefit for me.
@spacemissing: Of Course optical cables have a sound!
(To deluded snake oil buyers with wild imaginations...)
@atoptip6193: Skipping the “differences in optical cables’ sound” drivel, I can say TOSLINK is really a godsend in avoiding ground (pardon me! — earth) loops. For no good reason at all, I record the occasional NYC Met live opera broadcast on Saturdays, digitally, on Beta video tape, via a 1970s, Sony PCM-to-pseudo video converter. I then play them back — when no-one is looking — on my stereo about 10m away. I send the signal from the Sony, digitally. I tried co-axial cable, but that suffered intermittent “earth” loop clicks, like built-up voltage discharging. With my 10m optical cable, none of that. (And I know, I mentioned this before in a comment to your prior TOSsr@g video.)
@AudioMasterclass replies to @atoptip6193: If it works, it works. Enjoy.
@ExSkyCyclePilot: There is more snake oil in the world of audio than in any other field on earth!
@AudioMasterclass replies to @ExSkyCyclePilot: Art?
@TheEulerID replies to @ExSkyCyclePilot: @@AudioMasterclass Alternative medicine.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @ExSkyCyclePilot: Broken promises ... Expensive broken promises.
@manitoublack: I use an optical HDMI cables in a few locations. As i was having issues with copper ones not successfully carrying the 144hz video signal over +5m. Optical cables totally resolved the issues.
No audible difference between the 2 different options
@geoff37s57: It is a fact that digital connections generally work or they do not work. A faulty connection will be obvious with drop-outs, stuttering etc, it is impossible for a digital cable to introduce audible effects such as wider sound stage, smoother highs, greater transparency etc etc. if digital cables really did mangle the ones and zeros then digital networks and digital computers would not exist because they would simply not work.
@eDrumsInANutshell replies to @geoff37s57: These are good final words...
Very nice comparison.
@RitzyBusiness: A while back USB kinda sucked, at least in my old system. The amount lf audible noise, pops, and hiss coming out of my PC was very bad. Optical on the other hand was clean and perfect.
I am just glad USB has improved over the last decade. Its a lot more convenient.