Audiophiles - Worrying about the skin effect?
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Thursday January 4, 2024
David Mellor
David Mellor is CEO and Course Director of Audio Masterclass. David has designed courses in audio education and training since 1986 and is the publisher and principal writer of Adventures In Audio.
@MrSlipstreem: I'm considering marketing special cables of zero diameter for audiophiles that, therefore, exhibit no skin effect. Thoughts? 🤔
@AudioMasterclass replies to @MrSlipstreem: Are they invisible too?
@stretoo: The "skin effect" is what allows some plastic surgeons to buy overpriced audiophile equipment....😂
@NeungView: I design high-power AM, FM, VHF radio transmitters for a living.
In the real world, we use Litze-wire, which is a lot of really fine strands of copper wires individually lacquered and twisted to make a cable. Each strand is the radius of the skin depth, making each strand "all skin". Using 250 of these (typically) in parallel makes the resulting cable "all skin", saving the need for silver, or some ridiculous manufacturing process to hollow out the centre to save weight/material cost. The skin depth depends on the frequency.
We typically use Litze-wire from 500 kHz up to several tens of MHz, with powers from 500 W to 10 kW. Below that, normal wire does not get hot enough to warrent the use of Litze, and above, other methods are more efficient.
For audio frequencies, the skin effect is negligible compared to the capacitance between the two wires. In fact it is so tiny that it can be ignored.
@Ujjwalis: The BIGGEST Problem of Audio-Piles ( not Audiophiles) is that, they suffer from massive Placebo effect / buyer remorse syndrome and supplement their Tech Hardware spending with evermore spending on these Snake-oil sellers, who sell these paraphernalia like obscenely costly cables, stands, isolator. YOU guys over engineer your listening gear, to the extent that they even surpass the spending on corresponding elements even on Recording studios.
The SKIN EFFECT on Audio Frequency Non-Linearity is exceedingly negligible, specially for 1-3 Meters of RCA/Speaker cables. So Please please please, keep these Horse Shit with you, Audio-Moses !!
@pcp2240: I never worried about the signal not touching the sides and depth penetration before watching this video!
@steve4073: and it may use less depth ( skin effect ) but it uses more surface area which cancels this out as it still uses the same skin area effect .
and the more power the more it penetrates and the less power the less it penetrates . its resistaance in the wire building up as the flow increases higher currents consume more of the wire lesser currents consume lessof the wire and sliver and copper wouldnt tramsit the adio at a speed that would make any pesevable difference when it travels at the speed of light is a mans brain an oscilloscope ? no electric traveling around the world 8 times in 8 seconds with a 0.000001 speed differece will not be noticed. some people think they are the hearing Gods.
@bottomendbliss: The higher and lower frequencies need to be organised together onto tiny bus's so they arrive together on time.
@simonzinc-trumpetharris852: Skin effect is only relevant to RF.
@multicyclist: Exactly! Irrelevant. Got to love Audio mentally (Ph)ill. An audiophile spouting off about properties of a piece of gear that are totally irrelevant to, and have no effect on whatsoever in reproducing audio.
@Roosville1: Two points; at 6:10 where you discuss the effect at 20KHz, being the skin depth is 68% of your conductor. Although noted, it's good to remember that this point isn't a "brick wall", it's the point where 63% of the current is carried, the remaining 37% of current is still below this depth. The effect is therefore less than expected. The other, is the topic of surface roughness, where "how smooth" the conductor surface matters. The roughness alters the the impedance for high frequency signals traveling at the very edge of the conductor. Whilst really a concern on PCB traces, it does have a measurable effect on in co-ax cable. Certainly in the >40GHz range, but that little frequency-detail won't bother the serious audiophile. I give to Audio Phil conductor surface roughness as a new audiophile toy. :- ) And yes, I literally have in the past polished PCB traces….but that’s a RF story.
Bum, thats two things for Phil now....
@MarkThomas-hm3ju: Hey, with the new technological advances made theses days, maybe a speaker cable could be made using a crossover which would shunt the high frequencies to the center of a multi metal layered design whereby the center section has been made favorable for high frequencies. Wealthy audiophiles could rest then.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @MarkThomas-hm3ju: Audiophiles never rest.
@cygnus618: You really don’t like audiophiles.
@paulredshaw6301: I only worry about skin effect at RF levels where I use silver plated wire, Belden quote that 22 AWG wire has no skin effect at 20kHz
@LeeBergerMediaProd: My cables are encased in a stasis field where cause and effect don’t exist.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @LeeBergerMediaProd: The next step is of course to reverse cause and effect. Hang on... isn't that negative feedback?
@artysanmobile: Wire has inductance, multi-wire also has capacitance. These quantities can be measured and the frequency response of any given wire can be calculated. Professional wire companies, as opposed to audiophile wire companies, include these specifications for every product they sell. We design engineers appreciate and take full advantage of such professional behavior as we can choose the best solution for every application.
In all my years of such work, skin effect has received virtually no attention. Why? Because it has been measured and shown to be inaudible.
Belden, as you mentioned, is very serious about its business of wire. Their products are expensive but competitive and exhaustively developed for each application with complete technical specifications. If skin effect had any audible contribution worth mentioning, you can bet they would do so and offer a product to mitigate it. Notably, it does not.
@TheEulerID: The statement that thicker cables are worse for skin effect is only true in the sense that their proportional increase in resistance to skin effect is higher. However, if the absolute effect is lower. That thicker cable will still have a lower resistance at higher frequency than will a thinner one. What matters is whether it is significant or not. If the input impedance on a loudspeaker at high frequencies is low, say 4 ohms (unlikely) , then an increase in resistance over a couple of metres of audio cable of a few tens of milliohms (at worst), will haver zero audible effect. A thicker cable will simply not make that worse (indeed it will be better, scaling by the wire radius, not it's cross-sectional area).
For signal cables, with input impedances measured in thousands of ohms, then the skin effect is utterly irrelevant.
The only type of audio engineers who need to concern themselves with the skin effect are those working in giant arenas, auditoriums and the like, when a large number of other factors also come into play.
In any event, in the unlikely circumstance that the skin effect is important at audio frequencies, then the solution is to mover the power amps close to the speakers.
@billsmith5166: My comment was going to be something about the skin effect on braided wire, but you acknowledged it at the end with some sarcasm. Thank you.
@PaulBell88: At your age you can't hear those frequencies anyway. Insufferable self important rich people who spend and time naval gazing while people suffer from lack of resources. Bullshit!
@tubefreeeasy: There’s a huge audible difference between pure silver cables and silver-plated-copper in distortion, sibilance, and transparency.
I use Furutech Liquid Nano on my contacts. My pure silver cables still played brightly until I applied the FLN.
If this is not skin effect, what is?
@titntin5178: Maybe I'm a different kind of audiophile, but all I'm interested in is how it sounds and how it communicates music to me. I guess there are a ton of snake oil salesmen who may well spout some of this stuff to try and justify pricing but unless they can definatively measure why something sounds so good to me, its just hot air, it will sell on how it sounds.
Same for those who think we can definitively measure everything and confidently declare it doesnt exist unless they can measure it - such as the stalwarts at ASR. Are they really saying other earth like planets never existed until we got the tools to observe them?
I will continue to use the measurements we know about, but most importantly, my ears to judge what I like and what seems worth the spend. Maybe a few of you would already consider me to be well down the Rabbit hole - I just spent £330 on speaker cable. I didnt spend because of technical mumbo jumbo, but because they sounded like a big improvement to me, and results are everything to me, subjective or not.
@donnied8127: Late to the party as always, but if anyone wants to experiment, try connecting speakers using twin and earth (obviously only two conductors) and then multi-stranded cable like the one from Richer Sounds with 315 or 400 strands...Guaranteed to hear the difference ;)
@AudioMasterclass replies to @donnied8127: Ah, the great debate over whether to use that third conductor, and whether to connect it to the red or the black.
@donnied8127 replies to @donnied8127: @@AudioMasterclass Earth conductor should be joined with the neutral conductor and used only on the negative amp terminal so it can have extra 4 skin effect electrons on hand for individual projection towards the speaker.
PS
I'll get me own coat...
@joelcarson4602: Human perception even at it's very best is pretty pitiable. The human abilities when it comes to self delusion are really amazing however.
@ot5774: I prefer skin on skin effect.
@fernandofonseca3354: some say aloe vera can bring some relief...
@poulpedersen359: the only skineffect i have experienced in my 60 years of listening to audio have been the goosebumps i sometimes have experienced listening to certain artists or at very rare occations loudspeakers or a combo of both. 😀 in such cases there is only one solution : buy the damn thing and bring it home to marvel over.
@mikecampbell5856: The late great Roger Russell of McIntosh talked about speaker cables and the rending of garments, the wailing and gnashing of teeth over speaker cables. He recommended 18 gauge wire because the extra resistance helped with damping factor.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @mikecampbell5856: Comment readers might like to explore further at http://www.roger-russell.com/wire.htm
@arvidlystnur4827: I doubt any expensive woo woo line level, low impedance cable or silver fancy speaker cable would sound or scope any different then good grade low capacitance coaxial or good grade 10 or 14 gage copper wire, in a blindfold test. I remember wiring two speakers at a party, one channel cheap RadioShack 20 gauge and the other a 14 gauge camping extension cord 20 ft lengths.
The RadioShack side sounded like the tweeter was blown.
I scrounged around and found some expensive 14 gauge speaker wire, then used it to replace the twenty gauge stuff.
Funny thing, even switching the amp to mono, no one could hear the difference between the expense 14 gauge speaker wire or the camping 14 guage cord!
ElectroVoice has tables on what gauge to use for differing applications of speakers.
Short run wires, low volume efficient drivers 16 gauge may be sufficient.
Long run, 25 ft, loud inefficient driver between 10 to 14 gauge wire, probably is necessary.
If 14 guage copper just gets the job done, 10 won't improve it, and 16 gauge silver won't get it done.
@starker1971: This is all the wrong pursuit. No one will experience true audio nirvana until they listen while using my patented cash stack pyres.
You cannot use fake cash. You must set aflame actual cash or else the sound waves will become angry.
Those waves will distort mid air after noticing the fake cash. The distorted sound waves will then damage your hearing.
I don't recommend it.
@klaushaunstrupchristensen7252: It is a sad state when audiophiles worry more about skin effects rather than the Fletcher Munson “equal loudness contour” and the implications. John Crabbe once wrote an article in Hi-Fi News where he first went to a concert of a Mahler symphony bringing with him a spl meter. Afterwards he went back home and played the same symphony at what he felt was the same volume. It turned out that it actually was 10 dB lower than the concert hall level (quoted from memory!) This really makes questions like: which frequency response do we really need/want in a playback system where we potentially play at a much reduced level? Much more relevant compared to questions about how much skin effects reduce the level above 200 kHz.
Thanks for sharing and greetings from Denmark .
@graemejwsmith: As we know most current is carried on the skin. The way to resolve this is to use hollow conductors...... Like they do in electrical substations.....And some transmission lines.
And no - I am not joking. Look it up.
Hollow conductors save money on material. I'm sure the Hi-Fi manufacturers will be able to parlay it the other way and charge more for less as they will claim it is better! 🙂
@campbellmorrison8540: Oh my, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing if you have money in your pocket and are a sucker for a good story. If you want to spend $100's on fancy cables and kid yourself you can hear the skin effect then it no up to me to tell you otherwise, you obviously keep some business's going even if they are frauds.
@Bob-of-Zoid: The guy at the very end in the upper right corner with his insane over the top cable design: 2 speaker cables, only $165,999.99 Sound improvement = .00213%!
@KeatingJosh: I love music.. play and record.. and listen most days.. I have a nice set of speakers and a reasonable amp and good dac.. I use wilco £2.50/m cable and it sounds absolutely fine
@Ujjwalis replies to @KeatingJosh: You must be rightly spending more on Music more than Audio Snake Oils !!
@BoomerUKEngland: I use interconnects made from van damme silver series cable, these use silver plated copper and are low capacitance, they have low high frequency roll off a retain lots of sound detail.
@martineyles: How about multistranded cables?
@martineyles replies to @martineyles: I thought the video was almost over, then you mention it.
@beeble2003: I'm not sure what point you're making by comparing the 0.8mm cable to the 3mm cable with 685 skin effect. 100% of a 0.8mm cable is 0.5mm^2, but the outer 68% of a 3mm cable is 6.3mm^2. So, even taking skin effect into account, the 3mm cable still has a much higher effective cross-section (i.e., much lower resistance) than the 0.8mm cable. (No, I'm not an audiophile. I can't hear anything. I haven't spent money on anything.)
@kevingest5452: Yes, skin effect is a thing.... like most disinformation, they latch onto a grain of irrelevant truth and twist it in order to manipulate us. I can remember from my days as a US Navy radar and radio technician, Skin effect is the reason we use waveguide for Radar signals, but not for Hf (3-30MHZ) Radio signals because it's negligible... irrelevant for signals that are 10 times the audible frequency, so the frequencies we can hear aren't even 1/10 as high as they would need to be for skin effect to matter.
@Justwantahover: What about those wide flat cables like 3" wide? Are they brighter?
@edmundleung2098: Back in thr days of old, you walk into a state of the art recording studio you see a patch bay with these flimsy colored coded cables for everything.
@bpiorek: That's why my Fulton Gold speaker cables are constructed of very fine silver coated copper strands whose resistance at low frequencies is .0001 ohms per foot. My system sounds fantastic, musical, articulate, dynamic and clean.
@AstrosElectronicsLab: Why...? Man, audiophiles annoy me. I tend to think that this is all subjective. I don't necessarily believe that silver-plated copper cables lead to "brightness". Real-world test and measurements of different lengths of these "super cables" needs to be done compared with ordinary copper ones. Let's be real here, the length of the cable is the important factor. The longer the cable, the higher the resistance is (and the higher chance if it's not "dressed" correctly, it turning in to an inductor). Honestly, if you got an audiophile to do a blind "a-b" test (same audio source, same amplifier, same speakers, different cables), I doubt they'd hear the difference.
@arvidlystnur4827 replies to @AstrosElectronicsLab: You stated it better than I did.
By the way, if expensive cables raise the high frequencies ever so slightly, what's wrong with adjusting the EQ!
@kensmith5694: For you grounding consider that 20KHz goes several meters deep in the typical dirt. This means that your system ground is very well connected to planet earth if you ground all your audio at one point. Grounding can reduce hum pickup. The filters required to meet FCC generally mean that your whole audio setup ends up at about 50V vs planet earth, In the days of tubes, this was hard to do on any sort of budget. Today, transistors are basically free. An engineer can throw 10 more of them at a design if needed and not increase the cost more than the cost of the power switch or volume knob.
"brighter" and many terms like that are very poorly defined. They are generally not well defined because in many cases the effect is pure imagination. Modern audio gear has a very flat gain and a near constant time delay over the audio band.
For low impedance a 4 wire braided cable works better than two twisted conductors. If you braid two red and two back #14 wires together then parallel the same color wires, you will get a lower impedance than with a twisted #12 pair. Ribbon cable can work to get a cable under a rug. With a 100 wire ribbon you can use every other vs the other every as a speaker connection.
@jackevans2386: Love your posts but have to ask ," Why do care so much for the opinions of so called 'audiophiles' ? To me it's like caring about the opinions of flat Earthers ! The problem with both camps is, that no amount of re-education will change their opinions.
@offbeatinstruments: I used to work for a company that used skin effect to look for cracks in metal joints that had been subjected to bending forces. Essentially you send a high frequency signal through a chunk of metal and measure the voltage drop between two points. If there is a crack the current has to travel further (down and up the crack) and you can measure this. Bigger the crack, the bigger the voltage drop. So there is another thing to worry about (or not) cables with cracks in the surface layers with present an even higher resistance to high frequencies. So now you need cables that have never been bent.
@graemejwsmith replies to @offbeatinstruments: 🙂
@jondu-sud274: Oh no, I will not be able to sleep tonight knowing that I have a new problem to worry about.......the day had been going so well
@artemario7116: 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
@ChrisMag100: Strand size, overall AWG, and geometry matter at audio frequencies. You should attempt to digest this before posting clickbait videos. https://www.iconoclastcable.com/techpapers/vpandimpedance.pdf
@billpeel181: as Frank Perdue so eloquently stated, "If you can develop a preference among dead chickens, you can do it for anything."
@klausmller1219: I see one need to be quite careful when stripping the loudspeaker wire - if you accidentally cut some of all the thin outer lying wires making up the cable all the high frequencies are lost in action or at least a big proportion of them 😁. I wonder what quality of cables are used inside the components.
@dimitrioskalfakis: the skin effect is of interest to RF design. talking about it in audio engineering, despite being 'measurable' at a few kilohertz, is almost funny considering its minute effect.
@donnelson8524: Electrical Engineer here. Everything you said is absolutely >spot on<. I absolutely worry about the skin effect, but then I work in the gigahertz range. Oh dear, please don't tell Audio Phil about Surface Roughness! ;-)
Cheers from Pittsburgh, PA, USA.
@nottodaypal2143: Hifi is an extreme science/sport 😁
@markchisholm2657: As an engineer I can honestly say it's rare to hear such a load of cobblers spoken. If you are generating vast amounts of Kw from a generator then yep, possibly a problem.
Put it this way. The bigger the power output the bigger the cable used, not silver coating. The only place this is a problem is on hugh frequency EMF which has to be earthed on a generator and the simple solution is to use cheap flat braided earth bonding.
If you think you have a 'problem' feel the cable. Hot? No, it isn't thus the cable is perfectly suitable.
@bachvaroff: "Hearing" the effects of the skin effect at such a low frequency with one's vastly imperfect pressure-to-neuronal activity transducers (ears they call'em) is on par with delusions during a manic episode. It's also an alarm to see a shrink asap, with the possibility of remaining there for treatment…
@marcob.7801: God damn.....it's what Paul McCartney would have been at 65 and the Beatles never existed!
@bobbyboyderecords: Are you the David Mellor the writer of music production books? I used to have a few of your books in the 90s if so. Very good
@AudioMasterclass replies to @bobbyboyderecords: Yes that's me thank you. DM
@TheSpoonwood: Thank You ....that was deep.. had no idea.
@garyfred88: Among many audiophiles “resistance is futile!“
The attraction to high priced propaganda based products makes them irresistible!
They have a neurological condition known as “Ohms (OHMy those will sound amazing!) Law” which almost entirely lowers purchasing resistance!😅
@Ujjwalis replies to @garyfred88: Pure Gold Comment.
@chaoticsystem2211: -e^(i*pi)
@99Duds: I love this guy. I will give you that cable do sound different, not necessarily better. I have compared different wire sizes for my speakers, the best thing I have found to be useful and fairly cheap. I used 3 pairs of stranded speaker wires braided together. I found some interesting improvements. It did not do much for my sub, but the fronts sounded more open, and its only in a few songs not your everyday stuff.
As far as skin effect, I'm just learning how to tell the diff in detail and soundstage, so yea.... LOL
@darrellstyner0001: Audio Phil is pure genius. Has me laughing out loud every time!
@permanenceinchange2326: Already 40 years ago I read an article in an informative magazine... (for those old enough who know what that is). In the article they explained you can best use solid installation cable for your speakers, and nail them to your plinth about 10cm apart to avoid them working as a capacitor. I can't remember the arguments though, and I doubt I can tell the difference.
@Ujjwalis replies to @permanenceinchange2326: Capacitor in pF/nF range won't effect Audio Frequency. The problem is, Audio Snake oil seller sell Audio stuff with science for MHz and GHz Radio Frequency range. Gross Misappropriation !
@earthoid: Phil, you have too much disposable money.
@Tensquaremetreworkshop: 'Audiophiles' do not spend $1000 on interconnects because it improves the sound- it does not. It is a form of religious tithe- the high priests have convinced them it is necessary. The greatest improvement comes from better speakers- but your wife notices those. Sneaking in a piece of wire is easy, and anyway she would not believe what you paid for it...
Reminds me of folk that buy 7000 strand speaker cable, seemingly not realizing that, inside the cabinet, it likely goes through a long length of single core wire- an inductor in the crossover.
@matthewloughlin1943: I'm not an audiophile, just a HiFi enthusiast, the thing about cables always irritates me, I have seen insanely expensive cables that are of exactly the same construction as far far less costly items. Whilst trying loads of different cables to my speakers, none of them costly, I noticed that tinned conductors sounded better than plain copper, no Idea why. Could some small part of the audible improvement be ''skin effect''? being reduced? I am making a leap of faith here but I'm just curious.
@cubemerula5264: Oh yes, litz to litz jumping. Very big deal. Also, take into account the oxidization of non-OFC cable and how oxidization crystals create sort of resistors... I can only guess it's fun being so s*tupid as your average audiophile. We should dub it fore*skin-effect.
@cubemerula5264: It doesn't benefit from thicker cables.
@roberthart9886: David Salz (WireWorld) speaks about its negative affect on sound
@cubemerula5264: You did this one wrong. This seems as if you're giving some credit to the whole nonsense. in first few seconds you might've said that skin-effect happens at lightning bolt levels such as a few MW and the story would end then and there.
@cubemerula5264: Sound doesn't travel through a cable.
@jakobgooijer: Must be 20 years ago I've read something about skin effect in audiophile magazines
@birgerolovsson5203: As I've said since I found a bag of money: "Buy Nordost & bee happy!"
@perlman7376: Well done! Like all your videos. Thank you for presenting what you have found and not issuing a decree which usually infers that those who disagree are woefully ignorant, stupid or just can't afford the better things in life. Please do a video on blind listening tests. Although these also have their flaws (because everyone's hearing capability and perception are different) , they at least start with the premise that human beings should be the final judge of what sounds good. Back in the day there were far less choices but I was able to go to "stereo shops" and listen to speakers with my on LPs before I purchased a new set of speakers. Maybe ignorance is bliss but bliss sure felt good.
@Ujjwalis replies to @perlman7376: Mutual admirer of Horse Shit Snake-Oil !! Ignorant of What ?? PHYSICS ? Same Physics on which Speaker, Amplifier, CDS are based ? Every design parameter of which has Empirical Formula !! Please don't bring your Buyer's Remorse Syndrome/Placebo to counter PURE Science.
@TheRealWindlePoons: For an entertaining read on the subject, find a copy of Allen Wright's "Supercables Cookbook". I have tried a recipe or two from this and they worked for me. As ever, your mileage may vary...
@thinkIndependent2024: Grown fonder each upload with ur foray into technical Audiophile land, Please put together something on "HIFI GRADE" vs " LAB GRADE" the first term does not really exist but is used very often
@archiemacdonald553: Phil you are scaring me again and the winter looming 😅 lol
@johnkortink8133: A great line to start a video with. 'Here's something for you to worry about'. We all know why we're here. Things to worry about. Only to be explained we need not bother. :-)
@dougg1075: https://youtube.com/watch?v=bHIhgxav9LY&si=rpIa6WxxYp6MwIb3
Nothing travels through the wires . Comes from the field
@AudioMasterclass replies to @dougg1075: And then there's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iph500cPK28
@dougg1075: Shhhh! You’ll spoil it.
Yun / Remo Williams
@lerssilarsson6414: Sometimes skin effect really matters. Wikipedia (Fenno–Skan).
@BrainHurricanes: The higher the frequency, the higher the resistance (impedance) from your speakers, so the skin effect is absolutely nothing to worry about in comparison.
As a silly comparison, say your speakers impedance rises to 100 Ohm, the skin effect would add 0.0001 Ohm on top of that.
I'm sure someone can come up with the correct numbers, (but still negligeable).
@edmatzenik9858: A bloke came to my studio years ago, selling great microphones we couldn't afford. He was also selling quite cheap speaker cable that he said was better than the lamp flex we were using and set up an A/B test. We were surprised to find that, yes, it was better and we could hear the difference so we bought some. And he told us why it was better: "It's just because it's single-core," he said. "This is a special wire for air conditioners, but next time you buy wire for speakers just buy single-core doorbell wire." Try it, it won't cost much.
@ChiefExecutiveOrbiter: Kinky
@piero_75: I thought the Skin effect was when middle aged audiophiles suddenly start getting into heavy rock music such as Skunk Anansie simply because it is well-recorded.
@a.h.d.h.2803: Lifting a veil with those, I think beautiful and new, glasses? And how do you know that is not pyscheo-acoustics?
@slevengrungus: Guitar cables are subjected to an effect that can seem similar to the skin effect if the cable becomes several meters long, and you will then hear a clear decrease in brightness, a good countermeasure to this problem is to plug it through a buffer that converts the signal from high impedance to low impedance, and it will be capable of retaining those frequencies through said cable. By the same logic I would think active pickups would completely remedy this problem before even reaching the cable.
the reason guitar cables are subject to this problem is because its core and shielding together can act like a capacitor, driving those higher frequencies to ground.
Considering a buffer can retain the quality of a signal across a long capacitor I would claim that an "audiophile grade" power/pre amplifier should be able to retain the quality of a signal though a regular copper cable without any audible issues at all
@kevingest5452 replies to @slevengrungus: That isn't skin effect
@slevengrungus replies to @slevengrungus: @@kevingest5452
yea its not. the skin effect is an inductive effect.
The guitar cable is a capacitive effect created between the cable's shielding and its core, leaking higher frequencies to ground, thus dulling the sound before reaching the amp.
The reason I said they can seem similar is because they both result in loss of high frequencies proportional to its cable length.
the guitar cable is just way worse
@Temmple: OCC = ❤
@paulstubbs7678: You beet me, I was about to suggest Litz wire speaker cables.....
There has been a few designers who have gone down the multi-conductor channel, although stuffing it all up by adding heaps of capacitance in the process, This is a known source of amplifier instability - bad.
To me, the better route is to avoid low impedance speakers, 4ohms and below, so the resistance of the speaker wire has less effect. Or just get old like me, where age has a far greater effect on higher audio frequencies than skin effect ever will have.
I was advised that old age is bad for your health, don't go there.
@PJWEnglish: It seems to me that music/audio is at its optimum state when it is being mixed or mastered in the studio. The mix/master engineers are really the only people who get to listen to the audio in its purest form. From that point, the rest of the world has to listen to the audio, which was finalised in a studio, using equipment and acoustic treatment that is different to that of the original studio. Surely audiophiles should be trying to replicate the exact conditions to be found in the studio, worts and all, and that means using the same box standard interconnectors. Or am I missing something here?
@bugsbunny4698: "The effect is greater the more you worry about it" is pure gold! 💰
@shadowside8433 replies to @bugsbunny4698: I was just going to quote that too..... very funny.
@ac81017: I have to admit that I'm an Audiophile with a fully treated listening room and when it come to cables, it's all about the sound, like with every component in my system, it's all about the sound or Synergy. Yes i'm guilty of using Siltech solid core cables that are not cheap. I have no interest in the technologies used to make them. Sound is subjective.
@TheEulerID replies to @ac81017: Sound is essentially an interpretation made by the brain, and it is subject to a lot more influences than the ear. Humans are extremely susceptible to such non-audio inputs and can, indeed, make us search for things that we would not otherwise look for. I have no problem with the statement that sound quality is subjective. What I do have a problem with is those who make ridiculous and unmeasurable claims about what is scientifically measurable, such as "directional" conductors, burn-in and audio quality network switches.
The difference in such matters is to do with psychology, not the physical sciences. Psychology is among the most complex and least understood of the sciences, and there is immense scope for different explanations. Not so with, say, a USB cable.
@natigrinkrug: I believe it was Dave Worrall, or perhaps another channel, that said "Nature is a low-pass filter" - and that applies to so much
@christopherward5065: The frequencies of electrical signals being applied to a wire is very narrow in range compared to what a wire could propagate as a signal. I would say that wires do work through creating a magnetic field around themselves when they have an electrical potential difference between the ends. The field can be modulated in frequency at frequencies that can do work with transducers such as microphones and speakers modulating a current. The modulation of the field around the wire makes it able to affect its environment and to do work on materials and circuits nearby. There will be some loss of energy from the signal via the field into the environment but probably only a negligible amount of loss at audio frequencies. Increasing the frequencies by orders of magnitude would increase the proportion of energy lost through the wire’s field, as the wire tends to become a radio frequency transmitter.
At audio frequencies there would be very little loss over the frequency range. Cables tend to be made of collections of wire strands so the effects are more about metallurgy, arrangements of the strands, strand diameters. These are more significant variables in audio cables. Most manufacturers are juggling these variables.
@tubefreeeasy: Forget silver plated copper, sounds bright, sounds gritty but transparency is better than pure copper.
Pure silver all the way.
@hifinut247: Audio Phil scares me! Such attention to things I will never hear as a mere mortal. I know! I'll create my own AI and live vicariously through him! Thanks for the laughs and reminding me to just enjoy the music.
@peterevans202: If R(f) was a problem in interconnect, how much more of a problem would it be in the yards of wire that make up the speaker coil? You say the speakers have a flat response, but what wires were used to drive the coil when making that measurement? Stay tuned for the release of my skin effect correcting filter!
@pedrocols: Audio Phil is my hero...lol
@spacemissing: The only skin effect that bothers me is the condition of what's covering my innards.
@davidkuntz4458: i love the education