Audiophiles! Are you losing your cool?
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Wednesday September 11, 2024
David Mellor
David Mellor is CEO and Course Director of Audio Masterclass. David has designed courses in audio education and training since 1986 and is the publisher and principal writer of Adventures In Audio.
@MrSlipstreem: Hearing the difference between a competently designed hi-fi Class A or Class AB amplifier is completely imaginary as all forms of distortion should be hundreds of times lower than any human being can hear, as long as they're both being run within their design specs. The loudspeakers themselves are likely generating tens or maybe even hundreds of times more distortion than a properly designed amplifier.
Any competently designed amplifier will always run within its design temperature range if installed as per the manufacturer's instructions unless you live in a desert. The only components that have an appreciably shortened lifetime due to increased running temperature are polarised capacitors. Competent amplifier designers only use these where there is no other choice but to use them.
Running an amplifier with excessive cooling taking it below its minimum recommended operating temperature may actually increase distortion. It also increases the risk of internal corrosion through condensation of moisture in the surrounding atmosphere. Nobody in their right mind would slap a Peltier device on something that wasn't specifically designed from the ground up to use one for this reason.
Fight me!
@jefflabute2946: I never hear anyone claim TI MOSFETs sound better than ONSEMI MOSFETs or INFINEON MOSFETs. Must not be important. Certainly such parts have varying properties but there are already enough brand-names to mix in the pot. Numerous semiconductor and non-semiconductor properties change with temperature. These changes must be completely inaudible.
@pablohrrg8677: Heat also adds noise to the audio signal. Most of the time inaudible but measurable.
@nabman_: Dip the amp in thermally-conductive resin to electrically insulate the components, then run the amp under water. Simple! Only thing to do is invent thermally-conductive resin.
@EricIolo: May I ask where I can get the t-shirt you wear in the videos you make? Thanks
@ronaldmcdonald2456: A bunch of technically competent (and well-heeled) DIY audiophiles on another forum are on this like white on rice. They insist every degree counts, and they're applying that philosophy to the max in their most recent diy music server projects. Thousands-upon-thousands of bucks. I have no doubt they're on the right track. But not everyone can go that deep into the woods.
It reminds me of what my tech adviser said to me when I asked about tight tolerances for an electronic crossover I was building. Would .1% resistors be better than the recommended 1% resistors? ''Possibly,'' he replied. ''But the guy who designed that circuit did an excellent job, and you'd be spending a lot of extra money chasing rat farts!''
And naturally, I paid him no attention.🤣
@garymalone547: I feel I've failed as an audiophile, never having a heat sink.
@thenewyorkcityboy: Oh man, I love you (not in that way, 😆), you are too TOO funny 🙂 That opening line literally had me laugh out loud. "Here's something else for you to worry about" 😄 Classic.
That's the thing with the modern day "audiophile". The problems-of-old have essentially all been solved, so now they have to invent new "problems" to worry about.
Personally, I only deal with problems when they arise! With something like 30-40 tape decks & VTRs, dozens of computers, dozens of "interface" gear, multiple speakers, monitors, hundreds of cables, problems do arise. I literally don't have time to be worrying about "nonsense". Audiophiles would do well to follow the same principles! Use your gear, enjoy your gear, earn money with your gear, if you can...and if something looks or sounds "wrong", fix it!
I just watched a video of some guy demonstrating the "effect" of various power cords. Sheesh. Whatever, man! My power cords are all rated high enough, current-wise, for any piece of equipment in my studio. The ONLY choice to make is choosing one with the approximate required length! Every single one of them came "free" with something or other. The one that came with an $80k studio VTR is identical to the one that came with a $200 device. No surprise there! An absolute non issue. Not "good enough" for your average audiophile though 😆
@AudioMasterclass replies to @thenewyorkcityboy: It’s my light-hearted jest. I might expand in a future video but it’s my opinion that there used to be a ‘golden age’ when we really did have things to worry about, and to consider carefully what to do and what to spend money on to make things better. In the past I was so frustrated by the problems that limited my enjoyment of recorded music but at the same time I enjoyed learning about the technology and making judicious upgrades. I see no harm though in audiophiles aspiring to ever higher standards. I mean, who wouldn’t turn their nose up at 0.001% distortion if all they have currently is 0.01%? No-one is going to hear the difference but I admire excellence for its own sake.
@thenewyorkcityboy replies to @thenewyorkcityboy: @AudioMasterclass yeah, I kinda miss the days (sort of!) when tape decks were getting better and better. There was a very real quest in making "perfect" recordings, for me, anyway. Same with video - I got hold of a JVC professional S-VHS deck around 1990-ish, and the TBC/NR card made VHS tapes look almost as good as a broadcast VTR. Incredible! Once Digital Betacam came out, and then consumer DV equipment, virtually all the problems in video recording had been solved. Until HD came along...but again it was real progress, real improvements. Not chasing fractions of percentages. The only thing, for me, that makes any significant difference these days is speaker upgrades. Everything else is essentially "fine" as it is.
"Audiophilia" with its related BS claims & beliefs is equally funny and annoying. You can't keep milking a customer for more $$$ if you allow them to believe that their system is already good enough though!
@schemkesa: Thermal erosion is the main reason modern electronics fail. Receivers need to deliver more and more power to more speakers (thnx dolby atmos) so active cooling is a must. I use a pair of silent 5V USB fans to suck out hot air and create a airflow
@benjaminlloyd7868: I leave my amplifier running in mineral oil.
@allenjgoldberg6960: Just to amplify a comment: For a Class A amp - think single ended 6L6 as an example - the average plate current rises from a minimum at idle to a greater value when delivering output. Said another way, the plate dissipation, and thus heat, goes up under load. I think confusion about Class A amp thermal behavior arises from confusing efficiency with power dissipation. The efficiency is plainly worst at idle -- heat with no audio delivery -- and improves under load, but this doesn't mean the heat dissipation goes down with load. It does just the opposite. My two cents.
@allenjgoldberg6960: Audiophile: Lover of Audio. Doesn’t have to mean wretched excess.
@allenjgoldberg6960: Is attending to cooling appropriate? Absolutely! Ways of doing so have improved over the decades. It used to be that rotary fans were rather noisy, even the Rotron quiet ones. Modern computer fans that run on DC can be kept vanishingly quiet and easy to speed adjust. Also, Class D has come a long way. Very small, very powerful, very clean. Check out Purifi Eigentakt and others. If vacuum tubes (valves) are your must-do, heat goes hand in hand. Impossible to ignore. One more thing. Computers are far more efficient now than before. Thanks ARM! PCs that sound like jets are a thing of the past. And then of course, electric cars vs Otto engines. Have a good one.
@GazzaBoo: The level of stupid is now so far beyond the Peter Belt level of silliness of the 1970's that I cringe when I used to consider myself an audiophile. To be associated with these clowns is not something I'd want.
I'm a music enjoyer, not a crazed loon.
I've met some of these buffoons and they're the flat earthers of audio.
@pirate0jimmy: Most correctly made Class-A amplifiers will go to AB when driven harder than peak Class-A power and it won't sound bad until exceeding the Power Supply capability. Of course, a 25W Class A amp is enough power when using speakers with decent efficiency: HORNS, not electrostatic or Ionophone. When single horns and 25W are not enough for your 10000 square foot 80' high listening auditorium, get a dozen more 25W Class A amps and fill in the gaps with more big boxes and drivers as if you are a distributor for Altec-Lansing in 1959. For the more hungry esoteric audiphool: try buiding a system from the Cost-Is-No-Object gear handmade at Bell Labs for ERPI. Good luck.
@pirate0jimmy replies to @pirate0jimmy: Watercooling electronics is a timebomb. Try to find Apple Macintosh G5 tower with working original watercooling. All of the survivors I have found are the aircooled dual 2.0 GHz models. For audio amp cooling, look to Krell and Conrad-Johnson for excellently large fanless heatsinks. Favorite trick for better cooling of stacked gear is to place 2x4 lumber between top of one unit and feet of next to make a big venting space, also keep well away from a wall or curtains. Fans are a last resort and are included on cheaper gear to reduce heatsink cost.
@mattmoreira210: How about this: hybrid passive + fan-cooled heatsink. On loud passages, the fan is turned on proportionally, adding some extra temporary thermal capacity. The curve for the fan's speed could even be matched with the average rate the human ear recovers its sensitivity.
Ps: Of course, for optimum noise levels (and for the highest cost – a fetish among audiophiles), I'd recommend a centrifugal fan.
@cars654: I have always hated any fan in a audiophile system. They make noise and when they get old even more noise. They also bring in all of the dust and dirt in the air into the amplifier. A properly designed amp doesn't require a fan. Fan's are a electronic crutch for a poorly designed amp ! I have seen some with a filter on the outside of the fan, who is going to clean it !
@TheNorm6598: I think it's all just hot air... I'll let myself out.
@ConorHanley: Solid State cooling...but, for the best audiophile experience one needs the warmth of valves/tubes so won't solid state cooling mess with the sound? I need to know before I buy the best audiophile solid state cooling system.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @ConorHanley: Don't waste your money. A plain old computer case fan will move more heat than any Peltier device ever will.
@Gajooffical: Audio Phil made me laugh out loud...you should put together a video of Phil's best bits...😂
@mattmoreira210 replies to @Gajooffical: @Gajooffical I think Phil should even have his own channel 😂
@rpvermeulen: Real audiophiles strive to run their equipment near absolute zero to minimise noise. Nothing beats superconducting interconnects and speaker cables. All equipment immersed in liquid helium.
@marklloyd4153: I have a ac infinity triple fan unit with multiple speeds . You can leave it on all the time or set it to automatic. It has 6 speeds I leave it on 3 . Very quiet. I have one for my 2 channel 1 for my AVR theatre . If I get within 6 inches of them I can hear them . When the systems are off I don’t hear them in the room especially if I’m listening to music . Without them they got quite warm
@user-yk4gd1fl4z: Audiophiles are weird AF. Certainly deserve a title with "phile" in it.
@ac81017: Matching the ohms on the speakers with the amp is a common issue. A 4 ohm speaker might dip down to 1 or 2 ohms causing more resistance and heat. PMSL with Audio Phil's solution to heat, i guess if all fails with his cooling systems he could give his mighty power amps a golden shower ha ha ha.
@stevengagnon4777: Dry ice may work for you Phil. But us humans don't do so well with higher consecrations of carbon dioxide. 4% in the air is dangerous and prolonged can make your pretty ill at the minimum. 10% well convulsions , vomiting 🤮 and shortly thereof death ☠. This is if you don't have any cardiovascular or pumanary health issues. Not a good idea for a giant Class A amplifier in a poorly ventilated man cave !
@stevengagnon4777 replies to @stevengagnon4777: One solution not mentioned is typically not exceeding a half watt per channel in my three amplifiers they pretty much stay the same temperature whether it's idling or being listened to . Ironically my MCS 2255 ( JC Penny branded Technics) has Freon tube connecting the separated SU amplifier packs to the heat 🔥 sink😮. It's seems that it was marketed as a "New Class A" design under the Technics name. The other two are Class AB MOSFET amplifiers. They are all good enough 😊.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @stevengagnon4777: This is Phil's way of demonstrating his dedication to his hobby.
@stevengagnon4777 replies to @stevengagnon4777: @AudioMasterclass 😂
@pirate0jimmy replies to @stevengagnon4777: If you can't get hurt or killed from an activity, it's not a sport. If it's not expensive, it's not even a hobby. Is audio playback perfection a mental illness? I like to think of being paid for good sound as a job.
@stevengagnon4777 replies to @stevengagnon4777: @pirate0jimmy sort of like being in the mosh pit and being filed with that cloud of fog.
@MarkThomas-hm3ju: The Fosi V3 Class D that I use actually gets hot in use. I attribute that to its compact size where the components are next to each other. I theorize that spreading out components in an amplifier would lessen heat buildup as well.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @MarkThomas-hm3ju: Actually in the V3 and other TPA3255 amplifiers the major source of heat is the TPA3255 Class-D chip itself. That little fingernail sized chip is a real little furnace. Without it's heat sink, it self-destructs in just a couple of minutes.
Make that worse by using fully enclosed aluminum housings so that hot air just builds up inside the case which contributes only minimally to cooling.
Now make it even worse by trying to use the case as a heat sink.
If you want your V3s to run cooler, put rubber feet on the top and turn them upside down, place them side by side about 3 inches apart and blow air across the bottom (which is now the top).
@MarkThomas-hm3ju replies to @MarkThomas-hm3ju: That makes sense except to start adding devices to cool a device. That the V3 runs as hot as it does it will probably not have a long life. It's funny but Class D is touted as running cool and highly efficient. Probably other so-called Class D design topologies do meet that criteria. The V3 is still a bargain for its quality sound and so can live with its limitations for the use while it lasts.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @MarkThomas-hm3ju: @MarkThomas-hm3ju
Of course... An understandable point of view.
I've done very deep dives into the design and construction of several of these mini-amps and I can assure you the TPA3255 chip is quite capable of defending itself in normal use. The thermal guards do not cut in until the chip itself reaches 120c and will not shut the chip down until it reaches 150c so the chip itself can withstand a fair bit of brutality. Of course the heat sink temperatures will be lower, due to thermal resistance of mounting points and the thermal paste used.
Given a full on pro-grade forced air cooling solution the chip itself is able to deliver a very reliable 220 RMS watts per channel on 4 ohms, with a 48 volt supply. However, in these poorly ventilated implementations we are seeing from China, I strongly suggest you do not drive them on more than 36 volts at which point you will get about 130 to 140 watts per channel on 4 ohms with surprisingly low distortion.
The TPA3255 chip also has active indicators for Clipping, Over Temperature and Protection. I consider it a mistake to not implement them in these small amplifiers and have told the manufacturers this on more than one occasion. It's a simple circuit involving 2 LEDs and 2 resistors. In action the (usually) yellow clipping indicator will pulse each time you overdrive the chip then latch full on if you overheat it and the (usually) red protection lamp will come on to indicate the chip has shut itself down. Given the simplicity and low cost, I see no good reason not to give the end users access to these warning states.
I like the TPA3255 chip. It is a well engineered and surprisingly capable design that lends itself well to mid-fi and "fun-fi" implementations, when operated within it's limits.
If you would like to see what I do to these mini-amps, you can search for "ldblake music" and look for my DB avatar.
@FatherOBlivion replies to @MarkThomas-hm3ju: "Now make it even worse by trying to use the case as a heat sink.". That's actually a brilliant idea. Turn the entire case into a huge heatsink, extracting the heat from the amp chip. Who cares if the case is warm? Mine have been running several hours a day for months without issue. Very happy with them.
@MarkThomas-hm3ju replies to @MarkThomas-hm3ju: Actually, it's strange the V3 started to run cool. I actually like the V3 very much as it has good components and a nonsense build at a rock bottom price. It sounds very good too. As a Kickstarter it's probably Fosi's most thought out and best unit. I wonder why it ran hot for several months and then went cool. I did have new speaker cables that were not broken in that are now. I also thought there might have been machine oils that contributed to any heat buildup. Anyway hot or not the V3 is a historic buy.
@davidmorgen4558: open the bloody window..You brits are lucky Im in northen ca north of S.F. believe me it gets hot...The more north you go the hotter it gets. in city's such as Santa Rosa.,Petaluma.
@rabit818: I leave a glass of icy vodka tonic I am drinking on top of my vintage Marantz to keep it cool while I listens to Shostakovich.
@Douglas_Blake_579: Peltier devices mentioned in the video do not help much for cooling in a closed space. When you pass an electric current through a peltier device, you get a hot side and a cold side... but the net temperature in the space remains the same. -10c on one side +10c on the other... Not quite what you want in an amplifier casing.
@pirate0jimmy replies to @Douglas_Blake_579: Worse than this. Overall temp of the room goes UP due to losses in the cooling circuit.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @Douglas_Blake_579: @pirate0jimmy
"room"? Inside a device case ... not an entire room.
@lespaul667: If you’ve ever worked in a control room of a recording studio…’Climate Control!’ 😂
You don’t want your gear to melt, now do you? It’s also a comfortable listening area.
Gotta get those special Audiophil glacial ice packs! 😂
@Aranimda: Audio files.
@psyphonyxaudio: Use Class D amps and better Gan PSU..
Stop being afraid of efficient technologies.
... or better then that... stop whining and innovate some new technology that " sounds " better.
Since when did " good enough " even become a phrase for Audiophiles?
Quit complaining about it and design something new ..
@RAREFORMDESIGNS: This was a cool video.
@SubTroppo: Class A is why you need a nice cool actual man-cave, beanie, puffa jacket and long-johns.
@stevesmyth4982: A four channel Pass F5 Turbo V3 (DIY) amplifier has 32 output devices mounted on a cold plate, each device dissipates 25 Watts to make a total of 800 W. A central heating pump, two small car type radiators each with a 5 K RPM cooling fan remove the heat, the temperature differential between the input and output of the cold plate is 2 Deg. C. Because of the fan noise the system is in the cellar below my listening room and because the 'speaker cables are long and the amplifier is wide bandwidth the system is prone to oscillate. Aluminium foil tape wrapped around the 'speaker cables is connected to the bonded mains earth to keep things stable.
Previous attempts at using forced air cooling resulted in smoke and tears (mine).
@mattmoreira210 replies to @stevesmyth4982: Wow! That setup would make AudioPhil proud.
@mondoenterprises6710: My integrated has vents at the top. I trust SONY for that.
@billmilosz: I have some big amps, including Class A amps, in cabinetry. I have a couple of fans in the back of the amp shelf cabinet, with a temp sensor. The fans come on at 33° (90° F ) and the fans move air through the cabinet. The fans are fairly low speed and can't be heard at the listening position.
@bluesfish55m51: My Luxman M-120A amplifier has a radiator for cooling but it’s not water. I think it’s filled with oil rendered from leg less critters.
@polarbear3427: I suggest using a fan and add noise cancelling directed to the fan sound.
@stevengagnon4777 replies to @polarbear3427: 😂
@AudioMasterclass replies to @polarbear3427: Audiophiles would buy it.
@polarbear3427: pc slowing down when overheating is called thermal throttling.
@nickmoranis2865: Give your amp a decent amount of space. That’s it.
@adotopp1865: Put your amplifier in a bath of cold water
@adotopp1865: Cooling? Just follow the manufacturer instructions and allow it to displace heat naturally.
@razisn: A 'pure' Class A amp by definition becomes hottest when idling. As such the idea of switching to class AB when it becomes hot cannot be applicable. The amp should; be designed to become thermally stable at a safe temperature. What can and does happen with many (non single-ended ) amps is that they are biased to produce some considerable amount of power in Class A and when power requirements exceed that then they 'slide' to class B. Whether this kind of amp (high biased push-pull) can be called Class A or should be called Class AB is a matter of semantics (and marketing).
@mattmoreira210 replies to @razisn: Where I come from, we call such amplifiers Super class-a. The nearer the signal is to the zero-crossing point, the higher the bias current. So, at 0V, it would behave as a class-a amplifier and, at the voltage extremes, as a class-b amplifier.
@allenjgoldberg6960 replies to @razisn: I beg to differ. Retired research EE and college prof. Class A amp power dissipation is in fact lowest at idle, increases when delivering audio. On the other hand, throttling an amp delivering power is prone to distortion. Good low distortion alternatives to Class A do exist — modern class D amps, for example, or amps that idle with some cut off but use feed forward to deal with crossover distortion, like THX and Benchmark designs.
@10sassafras: I think it’s a listening problem… how to get audiophiles to hear the music when all they really want to do is to think about their gear.
@RokkorDoctor: Class A amps cool down as you play music; they generate most heat with no music being played at all. Solution: play your music louder and your class A amp will cool down! 😉
@pirate0jimmy replies to @RokkorDoctor: When done playng music on Class-A biased amps, turn them off. ;-)
@HeavyCrown2030: Class G or eGaN-Fet make a choice sometimes both
@arthurriaf8052: I'm running two Yamaha recievers RX-A6A and an older similar model. When i crank them up to live performance levels, the fans come on. There are different levels of cooling, and i only hear the fans when the music stops. All fans shut off within a few seconds of the music stopping.
I've never noticed the sound during the playing.
All the other amps don't use fans and run warm. The Carver M-400 power cubes never get hot.
I try to keep the room at 72 degrees, so that helps a bit. I do have liquid cooling systems from CPUs but don't need them on the audio amps. 😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😅
@innovationsinm: Found it so hard to listen to your flawed logic. Sure a manufacturer can design a component to manage heat, but did you actually read and totally follow the instructions in the box. My amp assumes an average room temperature so according to the manual I cannot run my setup in the summer. The specifications state I need to provide 80cm of clearance around the device, so I take it I cannot put it inside a cabinet. Thank goodness it has XLR connectors on it as the only place in my room I can guarantee nothing within 80cm circumference is on the opposite end of the room.
So perhaps the need for cooling isn’t that the manufacturer didn’t account for heat, but more didn’t accommodate for realistic use inside a house where room temperature varies, and air flow can be compromised. so adding some help can make a difference from having an amp clipping on a louder complex passage of music and it just simply works.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @innovationsinm: Are you sure that's not 8.0cm .... 80cm is almost 3 feet.
@innovationsinm replies to @innovationsinm: Exactly.. and the message I sent to the support department basically said the same thing. The response back was they don’t recommend putting the amplifier inside a cabinet as it restricts air flow. I proceeded to ignore it and fitted a dual 140mm computer case fan to push air into the top of one half the case, and flipped over to pull out air on the other half. Forced airflow ventilation and zero issues at almost silent noise levels as I used a big enough fan for CFM running at low speed for silent opposition
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @innovationsinm: @innovationsinm
Okay... but one suggestion ... Warm air is less dense and tends to rise upward. This is natural "Convection".
When boosting airflow in a case (as opposed to on a heatsink) you generally want to improve on the convective flow. That is: you want to draw hot air out through the top and let cool air flow into the bottom of your device.
It is entirely possible that the blowing air into the top could stall the natural convection and actually have the thing running hotter.
@innovationsinm replies to @innovationsinm: Naïvety on general manufacturing isn't good grounds for advice. The whole side the manufacturer has with the 80cm around is to allow for enough air to be cool to allow for the process you are trying to describe. but put an amp inside a cabinet and all of a sudden you loose the source of cooler air. As you are trying to use convection where the warmer air will move upwards creating a lower pressure over the hot heat sink that will draw in the cooler air from the side. (you do realize that air has a very bad heat conductivity) Now how you get from the bottom is a mystery as there most likely is a circuit board that everything is mounted on. Where this fails is you are now inside a cabinet that is more of a closed environment so initially the warmer air will start to rise. B ut as the air above the device heats up the pressure of the hot air increases to the point that less and less convection happens. As the now warmer air above the heat sink gets hotter it requires more force to move the air upwards so the heat sink slowly gets hotter and hotter. For a while the system will work but pretty soon the heat sink is warming the air to the sides just as fast as the air above til the point the convection current totally collapses.
So now to overcome this you either need to try and keep constant new air flowing into the cabinet so that a constant amount of cool air is inside the cabinet so that convection can happen naturally, or you can force a larger amount of air over the heat sinks so that they never actually heat up. one of those options are far more effective than the other but you can choose what method you'd prefer to use.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @innovationsinm: @innovationsinm
Most competently designed amplifiers (other devices too) that use internal heatsinks will have openings in the bottom or lower sides to allow cool air in. If they do not, you might want to consider creating some.
The whole point of fan-boosted-convection is to get the heat off of the heat sinks... the fans will simply accelerate that process.
@mikecampbell5856: I used to fix copiers. I have a bunch of 24v fans that I pulled out of junk machines. I have a bunch of AC/DC adapters laying around so I wire a 6-12 volt line to the fan. It runs slow and quiet. I plug it into a switched outlet and I'm all set. I set the fan on top blowing air out.
@stephanherschel5785: Class D 🙂
@mattmiller4978 replies to @stephanherschel5785: V3Ms managed to break this!
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @stephanherschel5785: @mattmiller4978
Actually it's the TPA3255 chip that's the real heat source.
@mattmiller4978 replies to @stephanherschel5785: @Douglas_Blake_579 V3's never got hot or even warm. Same chip.
@alwayspushing2031: AC Infinity fans are top notch. I used an inferred gun and after 30 minutes my Emotiva - 94f , Outlaw -88f and Fosi V3 - 97* and none got crazy hot, but much warmer then I cared for. So after running with fans back on no amp got over 80*, so yes they stay cooler and I'll take that insurance anytime.
@Douglas_Blake_579: Lets start with a simple observation ... Most audiophiles spend considerable time trying to fix problems they don't actually have. "Much ado about nothing", enacted in modern day real time.
David correctly points out that the first step is to determine if you have a problem at all. Most modern electronics is safe up to about 50c, measured on the heat sinks, which will translate to a higher but still safe junction temperature in the actual chips and transistors.
Also check the manufacturer's specs. They will most often tell you what the device's safe operating temperature range is. The best way to measure the actual temperature is with an infrared thermometer set to show you the highest temperature in it's view.
The easiest first thing to do is make sure your equipment isn't jammed into some small cubby hole with no air circulation around it. The close confines simply limit the amount of cool air the device has access to. The more open the space the better.
Also don't stack things on top of heat-producing equipment. This runs the risk of overheating the device and anything stacked on top of it.
Competently designed amplifiers will have thermal shut down circuits that also protect against over-voltage, reverse voltage, DC offsets, shorts and too much current. They will let our ear-bleed seeking friends brutalize them only so much before they simply shut off.
Of course the solution to active protection circuitry is very simple: Turn it down.
(Seriously, this is a long ignored secondary function of volume controls that is as easy to use as the primary function of turning things up to the point of impending ear damage.)
Fans are not evil. Any 120mm computer case fan, designed for 12 volts, will run near-silent at 9 volts. Simply attach rubber feet and place them on top of the device's top cooling vents, to draw hot air out. Or, when there are no top vents, place them to simply blow cool air in the direction of the device. Either way the goal is to boost convection cooling, and it usually works quite well. You may notice a slight whirring when the system is idling, but you'll never hear it during music or movies played at reasonable volumes.
@memcdm replies to @Douglas_Blake_579: Never had an AB or Class D amp overheat. Never needed an extra fan. I have a class A pre which runs a bit warm. My commercial amps have fans which have never come on in home use apart from one that runs the far from startup. Had a tube power amp that ran very hot and the power tubes really needed to be replaced every year .... based on actual measurements which revealed rising distortion components. My tube preamp didn't eat tubes but I had to replace the power supply every 2 years! Boo!
@memcdm replies to @Douglas_Blake_579: Thank you!!
@utube4andydent: I wonder if Audio Phil has converted his listening room into a walk in fridge? On a slightly less silly note some frequencies are affected with temperature for example compare the sound of church bells on a summer day as compared to on a cold winters day. There is a crisper sound to the high frequencies.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @utube4andydent: Sound changes with humidity too.
@jimdavis5230: I design and build my power amplifiers with heat sinks far bigger than they need to be so they always run cool to slightly warm. I do this because for every 10 degree Centigrade increase in transistor junction temperature, the life expectancy halves.
@dornauge1995: fans are ok imo, just not ones that are 40db loud...
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @dornauge1995: Look at the new crop of 120mm computer case fans. They're made for 12volts but if you run them on a 9v power supply they're almost silent. AND they're a lot cheaper than the "audiophile" stuff on the market.
@dornauge1995 replies to @dornauge1995: @Douglas_Blake_579 i replaced the fan of a xbox one s with a noctua fan..... from memory the stock cooler was way louder, the noctua barely noticable, the cd drive became the big next noise source.... :)
Noctua is probably the go-to fan brand for such after-market mods
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @dornauge1995: @dornauge1995
They are good fans ... but any decent fan will do the job.
Again the secret is to run them on 9 volts instead of 12.
@dornauge1995: Phil made me curious how my equipment sounds if i place a pot of nitrogen on top! lol
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @dornauge1995: That depends ... how many different ways do you want to crack your circuit boards?
@arthurfleck1554: My amplifier start sounding good when in reaches at least 45°C.
@CarlVanDoren61: Coda Ts v3 800w@4ohms
120 Fahrenheit all day long ðŸ¤
@Roof_Pizza: No cooling issues at all in my system, the fans don't even switch on with the lone exception of my gaming console. Video boards in an AVR might run hot in some units, however.
@normik84: 🤣
@dalewilliams8001: I have a class A Super Dynamic JVC receiver from 1987. I used to run a small fan on it. Didn't hear the advantage of class A, even in comparison to several other class A/B units that I've listened to over the years. More recently, I listened to a Marantz integrated amp, switchable between class A and A/B. I heard slightly more clarity in class A mode. Based on my years of experience, Class A isn't worth the inefficiency, the heat, and heat isn't exactly a friend of electronics / circuits. I also do not want extra heat in my home when it gets hot and humid. That makes the AC work harder. Class A/B for me. I am good with it.
@ericdere: Follow up question: should I worry about dust entering the holes?
@AudioMasterclass replies to @ericdere: Yes you should. As an extreme example my old Mac Pro, soon to be visiting eBay, sucked in the dust and collected it. Every so often I would vacuum the vents which would be clogged with dust, and once in a while vacuum thick layers of dust inside. This would be less of an issue with audio equipment but I don’t think it would be of no issue at all.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @ericdere: Yes... David is right, it's a problem. (fans or no).
When adding fans try to boost the natural convection inside the casings or along the heat sinks. That is place a fan on the top vents to draw warm air out of the case. This will also draw floating dust out of the case with the hot air. It won't totally stop the accumulation but it will cut it down by quite a bit.
@stevengagnon4777 replies to @ericdere: Dust building up on the surface of the components and heat sink might become an insulation jacket over decades.
@shpater: thank you for the topic, my comments and experience sharing:
1) cooler doesn't mean better. for example Tube amp: you have to wait till it warms up.
2) Solid state devices are much more tolerant on temperature range.
3) Let's assume that a good design for home residence is designed to work at indoor temperatures of +15 to + 35 degrees and assumes a normal room temperature of 25 degrees. this is a very narrow temperature range. industrial range for solid state components is at least -20C to +70C Degrees
4) Passive cooling has no limits. Any passive cooling system can reach any goal of heat dissipation using enough amount of size (volume) and weight (and $$$).
5) Fans are a big no no. You need it at least for a late night quiet mode of listening. In such a scenario a "quiet fan" is noticble. I have a PC as part of my system and have change it to fan less heat dissipation method. this (with other actions) reduced the room noise level from 33 dB SPL to 29 dB SPL.
6) Class A and Class B share the same electronic design the "only" difference is the Bias current level. if you increase the bias level you allow more dynamics on the quiet passages to be using the "non switching area" of the working point. of course, the higher the Bias current the bigger heat dissipation required is. a good designer takes into account the distortion level of each and every component and stage.
7) Bi amping, plus Active subwoofer splits the power between amps thus reduce the required amount of power per amp. Mono blocks as well (but will increase the $$$ investment).
8) I did not mention yet the Class D option. certainly for subwoofers.
9) Air conditioning in the room: has to be quiet as well.
10) thermal active bias control is not a problem: thermal bias controls assures same bias current at all temperatures. it is not to be confused with temperature control (which most Passive amps do not utilize).
Thanks
@AudioMasterclass replies to @shpater: Picking up on your comment on tube amps, obviously the heater needs to be warm but I wonder whether other parts of the tube need to be warm too. I wouldn’t think that any external cooling would affect the heater but it might be interesting to explore this further.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @shpater: @AudioMasterclass
The cathode has to be warmer than the Anode for the tube to conduct. So yes the envelope temperature does matter.
@shpater replies to @shpater: @AudioMasterclassÂ
I Don't use tube amps. From other users reporting, I know that a tube Amp needs some 10 to 20 minutes of operation till it reach its optimal working point. This means it finished warming up period and reaches a temperature stabilization.
@rhodaborrocks1654: I use valves and they get really hot, I don't mind though because I like the smell of hot glass !!
@AudioMasterclass replies to @rhodaborrocks1654: You might be liking the smell of hot dust.
@paulmcdonough9595 replies to @rhodaborrocks1654: @AudioMasterclass toasted dead bits of people eew!
@marxman00: Everything should be a problem to an Audiophile , its the whole point of the sport and they do love it when you invent them a new one , And ,lets be serious, a nicely lit plinth of dry ice would look so good in the listening room .
@utube4andydent replies to @marxman00: yep pick the music right and it won't sound better just be presented in a show business big way.
@thomasalexand replies to @marxman00: Cool vibes.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @marxman00: "Everything should be a problem to an Audiophile"
Including the stuff that isn't a problem.
There is sooo much "science" that exists only in the audiophile realm, it's hard to believe these guys haven't blown up their own equipment.
@mattmoreira210 replies to @marxman00: It would look so good, and be so lethal lol
@pirate0jimmy replies to @marxman00: Sufficient dry ice will sublimate and overpressure the room with carbon dioxide. This is hard on air-breathing creatures, so you might move your birds and animals to another area.
@buriedbits6027: Oh mercy, the AI clip at the end is hilarious.
@utube4andydent replies to @buriedbits6027: if audio Phil has not got a fan club. He should have. His words of wisdom are well thought out. I'm just glad I don't have the budget.
@josephgamble4678: It's not the heat. It's the humidity.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @josephgamble4678: Actually no. Got your joke but ... Humid air is more thermally conductive and tends to cool passive heat sinks more effectively.
@Natan9000 replies to @josephgamble4678: 🤣
@buriedbits6027: I recently came across the Noctua NV-FS2, which is marketed as a quiet and award-winning fan designed for general use, including mounting on the vents of devices like integrated amplifiers. While I’m not an audiophile and don’t drive my amp very loud (it’s a mid-range NAD, though I don’t recall the model number), I’m considering adding this fan to help with cooling due to rising ambient temperatures—especially in the summer months, when climate change has made things hotter for longer periods.
I’m primarily concerned with the longevity of the amp, not necessarily improving the sound quality. Many electronic components, like capacitors, are rated to handle high temperatures, but it seems to me that lowering the operating temperature by just a few degrees might reduce stress on the components and extend the amp’s lifespan. I know some people might be against using a fan due to potential noise interference, but since I usually listen to music in the background while working (not in a sweet spot), that’s not a dealbreaker for me.
I’m curious if anyone else has tried something similar, whether with this Noctua fan or another solution. My main goal is just to keep things running cool and dust-free, especially when I don’t have air conditioning. Has anyone noticed improved performance or longevity from doing this, or is the effect negligible?
As a footnote on noise In the 1990s, when vinyl records were still widely used, I remember visiting a shop in Toronto called Bay Bloor Radio. They had stunning audio gear, not just functional but visually striking—amplifiers, CD players, turntables. One piece that stood out to me was a turntable with a frame made of stone, and it was spun by an air pump instead of a belt. Interestingly, the air pump was meant to be placed in a separate room to avoid introducing noise into the listening space. It’s fascinating how far design went to eliminate any trace of noise, which is something people might think about when considering adding a fan. Fans are often associated with noise, which could be a valid concern for some who don’t want to compromise their music experience.
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @buriedbits6027: I've added external fans to a couple of AV rigs. What I do is take a lower priced, generic, 120mm computer case fan and run it from a 9 volt supply, where it's nearly silent. I will put soft rubber feet where the screws would normally go and just lay it down on top of the top vents in the device casing, so it draws hot air out of the case. It's quiet, it's cheap and it gets the job done.
@stevesmyth4982 replies to @buriedbits6027: Computers used in aircraft are put through 14 temperature cycles of typically -54 Deg. C to +85 Deg. C to weed out infant mortality. Component reliability is a bathtub curve but long periods at high temperature will shorten their life.
@ian-nz-2000 replies to @buriedbits6027: Noctua fans are top-notch, I use them in all of my computer builds because I hate fan noise!
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @buriedbits6027: @stevesmyth4982
Your typical home stereo (or computer) would NEVER survive that.
@buriedbits6027 replies to @buriedbits6027: @Douglas_Blake_579thanks for the tip and your experience.
@mattmoreira210: Also, as the temperature goes up, so does the noise floor of the silicon junctions inside your gear. Should you care? Probably not! The noise will still be inaudible to you and 99.999% of us humans.
@radman8321: A circuit to turn down the volume slightly in class AB would be a much better option. Because of the logrhythmic nature of things a small reduction in volume has a large effect on power and therefore heat. Alternatively a better choice of speakers would mean the amp wouldn't have to work as hard and would stay cooler.
@NeungView replies to @radman8321: Suggestion 1 does not work
@radman8321 replies to @radman8321: @NeungView Why not?
@Douglas_Blake_579 replies to @radman8321: Some amps actually have this, already. You push them too hard and they start limiting current... effectively turning things down.
@pirate0jimmy replies to @radman8321: @Douglas_Blake_579 yes, many 1970's and later models have "dynamic biasing".
@BlankBrain: Move to Alaska and only use your amp in the winter. If you move far enough out, you can crank it up without bothering neighbors.
@jondu-sud274 replies to @BlankBrain: Good thinking🎉
@utube4andydent replies to @BlankBrain: @jondu-sud274 wonder if sound carriers further in cold climates. If that is the case you'll annoy your neighbour a couple of miles down the road.
@jondu-sud274 replies to @BlankBrain: @utube4andydent I think the treble may become even more forward in the mix at low temperatures making modern recordings more annoying for those not benefiting from noise insulated Igloos
@stevengagnon4777 replies to @BlankBrain: Or as we did in the past: build a large Profesional PA speaker system ( fifteen inch and a large format horn woud be sufficient) through 10 watts at it and have grumpy neighbors . Just for kicks toss in a twenty one inch sub too 😂.
@BlankBrain replies to @BlankBrain: @stevengagnon4777 I used to live in the country. I'm still rural, but have closer neighbors now. I reverse-engineered JBL 4343s, and my stepfather and I built them in the late '70s. I replaced the horns with "The Tube" Karlson couplers, did some different port tuning, and tri-amped because I didn't feel competent to design crossovers. These are the speakers that I still use. If you want realistic volume levels, you need more than ten watts. Even Klipshorns need more to do justice to the music.
@Unavintage: In Rio de Janeiro, keep the equipment cool is almost impossible, unless your room has Air Condictioner works 24-7...
@NeungView replies to @Unavintage: Stop cutting down the rain forrest then...
@Unavintage replies to @Unavintage: @NeungView Geography. Topology.