Virtually Useless? Hear what VU meters can really do for you in the studio
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You can comment on this video at YouTube
Thursday April 20, 2023
David Mellor
David Mellor is CEO and Course Director of Audio Masterclass. David has designed courses in audio education and training since 1986 and is the publisher and principal writer of Adventures In Audio.
@combofriend4461: Maybe I'm misunderstanding- why is it said that the VU meter "underreads" by X amount when comparing it to the peak meter?, aren't they tools for intentiinally measuring different things? The VU meter isn't intended to show you instantaneous peak, right (although I know many support that as an included metric it can do, but just in this context, you're showing the standard RMS metric right?)
@DarkoSimonji: Hi! -18 DB is good "almost standard" because most analog modeled plugins use this as reference point as "sweet spot". Simulating line level signal. So basically, you just save yourself a headache of "why my 1176 compressor is no sounding realistic while using a preset". Saves you some time of individual input adjustments knowing that it will work as it was meant to work rather than chasing the sweet spot on each and every channel by ear to simulate optimal analog chain. Some producers like Sara Carter use -15 reference to resolute in more harmonic distortion or as she says, "like this you don't have to work your plugins harder to achieve saturation". So basically, you should first do research about what dBFS is your "analog modeled" plugin expect as sweet spot and then gain stage to its parameters if you chase to replicate authentic reproduction of real hardware, if not, play by ear and don't worry. God Bless!
@DarkoSimonji replies to @DarkoSimonji: Btw this is particularly useful to gain stage guitar DI signal before hitting the AMP sim. Because if you feed the DI to hot it won't act realistic no matter what you do to id. Find a dBFS optimal reference for specific AMP sim, chase that as input level and wolla your Guitar can finally sound like it is jacked to real Marshall, responding to Gain level as it should. P.S: for plugging into Audio interface, please don't leave gain knob at 0 (no matter what they say), because doing this you will drastically lower signal to noise ratio and you will saturate your signal with audio interface noise. Find best strength of gain without clipping and lower plugin input level according to vu meter referenced for sweet spot of your amp sim. There is also some difference in Single Coil, Humbucker and EMG pickups output so keep in mind that achieving an authentic Single Coil to Amp you need to lower input level more and to do it with EMG pickups add a little bit input level because this is the natural way signal hits the amp.
@jasmeerlabeer4591: Good information, but I worry about the source when he can't even gate for his inhaling and exhaling in this video. Sounds like Trump giving a speech.
@yentl555: Now explane > audio graphics analyzer xD
@rainchaser1111: Wow! 101,950 views yet only 2.6 people could be bothered to expend the energy that it takes to hit the like button. Thatās pathetic folks. I for one understand the depth of this personās knowledge and experience. Thank you for posting. Sincerely with respect. Happy New Year.
@melvincoleman595: Very good teacher!
@joicejewerly5579: Vu stands for visual use
@beeamadeusfox: Very interesting and a real brain tease until I can properly get my head around it! Thanks for the video. Will return for more.
@JamesP-l9l: Im trying to understand what and why i would need this.i dont care what brand of vu meter people are using. Like this video āthe vu meter im using today is this, why? Because this is the one i like to useā. It seems like nobody gets to the point and just gets in as many words into the video as possible without actually explaining anything.
@fran-9n: but they look cool AF in my totally digital plugins that don't even need a VU meter!!
@PabloDasMedia: What does it mean to under read? I was looking for how to read it at all. Which wasnāt really covered. Are we looking at where the needle averages? The top of the level? The middle?
@AudioMasterclass replies to @PabloDasMedia: If a short peak is actually 0 VU, the meter might only show -10 VU because the needle is slow and cannot react quickly enough. So it reads less than the actual peak level.
@gibson2623: I still use them. The VU meter reads something that is OBJECTIVE. It doesn t have ears. Nice video. Thanks.
@sylvaind9086: Interesting comparison. I still own several ReVox's and you've reminded me of the cleverness of the VU standard.
@royweatherly1182: Who gives a shit what they do they just look cool.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @royweatherly1182: Youāre not wrong. Whoever created the visual design both for aesthetics and utility deserves a medal. 85 years too late unfortunately.
@AudioVideoEnthusiast replies to @royweatherly1182: i agree, they look cool. Same as the LED version of the VU meter as the LED's light up to the music, very cool looking. Some people want to complain about everything.
@EMBEEclassic: 6:30 How do you know it under reads by -6dB ?
What to the values left and right to the analogy meter mean?
@adielstudiosllc: Will you be hosting a VU meter in depth class ? I would like to learn a bit more samples and perhaps make use of this in my repertoire of Recording Engineering Thanks !!
@AudioMasterclass replies to @adielstudiosllc: I donāt have plans at present but you might want to listen to my podcasts on gain staging at https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/gain-staging-episode-1-sos-podcast
@u-recken: Itās written on just about any analog emulation plugin manual. Stop miss leading people
@CarlosPerdomo: I didnāt get the point of the videoā¦ š¢
What did I miss?
I use the VU meter to adjust my kick and base, other than that, in the digital world, the VU meters seem to be useless. Am I missing something?
@u-recken replies to @CarlosPerdomo: Your not. and you are doing it right
@CarlosPerdomo replies to @CarlosPerdomo: @homebrewinstrumentals7700 minus 3 db for the kick drum and once the bass comes in it goes up to 0
@variant_films: brilliant thanks - the best on the web - have you done a vid on 32 bit float? that would be really good
@AudioMasterclass replies to @variant_films: Iām sure I will cover 32-bit float at some point. It doesnāt improve audio quality but has some excellent convenience features.
@popcycles: in an analog mixer, it does.
@Miamicop100: Wow you have got to be a neuroscientist to understand clipping...I know you said some important stuff, cause you had a clue of what you were saying, and you tried explaining a concept. I downloaded the free mwmeter2 to test it out, and couldnt even get it to show up in my DAW. And this entire topic is just a haze to me. I want to understand, but it is too complicated. As all I want to do is plug and play my instruments.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @Miamicop100: There are some simple rules that will get you a long way.. 1: No red lights when youāre recording. 2: No red lights when youāre bouncing your mix. 3: Make music.
@trackquestmusic: Thank you for the lesson...
@paulhunter6652: Hello: Will these VU meters work on my Bryston headphone amp and streamer? Low wattage and voltage. They have balanced connections. Iām not familiar with all the technical jargon. Thanks.
@alanm.thornton4055: OOOOOOOO. REDBULL F1 DRIVER SLAM!!! NICE!!!
@AudioMasterclass replies to @alanm.thornton4055: 5:39 for comment readers
@guuuuustaf: I guess I am dumb, and a bit drunk. But for a noobie like me. is it OK to override into the Red area in the VU meter ? I am using a fosi mcm101 amplifier with a focal 100 lc6st in ceiling speaker. When the bass kicks in it goes way into to red, when the volume I prefer is set. I should not have bought a vu amp. this is getting my anxeity going. I dont want to break things. Anyone who knows more than me is much welcome to answer me this. ( yes english is my second language boomshakalak)
@akikyriazis6136: This was very helpful!
@herbphelps8713: LOL
@malcolmmitchell8538: But they look great!
Donāt care what they doš
@AudioMasterclass replies to @malcolmmitchell8538: I canāt deny the look is good.
@flamindigo: it (digital 0 dbFs) was -12 db = 0 in 2008 when I was in college for audio engineering.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @flamindigo: -18 dBFS now. Must be shrinkflation.
@MrSlipstreem: Cassette deck standards moved up from 160nWb/m to 250nWb/m at some point in time (I can't remember exactly when), and that's why 'older' cassette deck meters have their Dolby reference level +3dB and 'newer' ones have it at around -1dB. The obvious consequence of NOT doing this is that a Dolby encoding made on an early machine wouldn't get the correct de-emphasis on playback on a newer machine (or vice versa) if both used their respective 0dB level for Dolby calibration.
Of course, Nakamichi deliberately disagreed with everyone else (just as they had originally with recording and playback EQ curves) and went for 200nWb/m as the 0dB point AND Dolby calibration point just to make sure they were as incompatible with everyone else as possible. Play an original MkI Dragon recording back on any relatively modern deck and it will sound quite woolly, especially if it was recorded in Dolby B and you're trying to play it back in Dolby B as that magnifies the error.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @MrSlipstreem: In pro audio using Dolby Type A (or SR) the tape recorder must be calibrated for unity gain so what comes out is the same level as what went in. The level can be adjusted on playback but this requires that there be Dolby tone on the tape before or after the program material. Cassette with Dolby B is the same regarding level. So, as you say, there will be an error.
@ChrisLinesComposer: Great video. Someone who actually goes in depth and puts VU meters in context. Thanks.
@kuolettavakissa: 2:35 Why does too much level in a radio broadcast get the station shut down?
@Gma7788: It should be variable ultage.
@richardstirling5799: Great vid thanks - learned a lot
@SoltaSound: Top notch content thank you
@AudioMasterclass replies to @SoltaSound: You're welcome.
@Robil63: "Real world" I can buy, - "Bricks and mortar VU meter"? Now you've gone too far.
@flying-pinky: Actualy it should be -20 db because proffesional equipement should give you +20 db output with full digital signa.
@Middlestepofficial: First and last: I don't gain stage. Neither Andrew Scheps does.
@marcusdekker: Beautifull made video! Congrats and thank you!
@TheGreatConstantini: Nice video. In the day I spent many hours aligning tape decks and we certainly used VU meters as well as using them in our recordings and mixes. Today I will glance at my daws digital meters but really with the headroom in digital recording and relatively negligible noise floor I really on my ears. So a really good exercise that I recommend is to push several different signals like you had on you example up to where you can hear nasty digital distortion as well as see if when turned way down you can hear any noise. As your projects get more complex with many tracks do the same. Gain staging is still important and VU as well as other metering is visually helpful but nothing beats your earsā¦ā¦providing you can still hear!
@biggles5633: The AI character is goddamn awful. ... please .... otherwise really like the content
@NilankaGrrr: What mic are you using for the videos? š
@AudioMasterclass replies to @NilankaGrrr: Usually Sennheiser MKH 416. Sometimes AKG C414 EB but if I use that you'll see it in shot.
@tudorgheorghe4532: Did you know that Bit rate on audio testing tone has a impact on stability of the test? What BIt rate did uou use and what bpm ?
@marcusbrsp: Visually Ubercool
@artysanmobile: VU meters are really good for alignment. They sit still really well and very small changes can be made easily.
@schkhermer5249: is it possible to achieve 0VU and also -14lufs same time?
@tudorgheorghe4532: I get it ! You are kind composer of some sort.Volumes and international regulations were written bbc and others.they stands for av laws?!!! Or not a joke.reaf snd learn,internet
@noizfactory: Love your content and the humour that goes along with it! Especially liked the F1 reference in this one š
@wildstar45678: Why do these things all flash tiny tiny lights. If something important is happening, why doesn't the entire meter turn red and stay red and the music stop and the computer tell you what's exactly wrong and how to fix it? And why do you get a "light" flash anyway. Why isn't the indicator a loud beep or a siren? Why isn't there an absolute measurement? Water freezes at an absolute measurement of temperature. Paper burns at an absolute measure of temperature. Why is all this stuff so unclear? Really, all this technical knowledge gets in the way of artistry. If, when a painter is painting a painting, they had to use a meter to tell them if the red paint is too bright, or the canvas is too rough, or the black isn't 100% black, it would slow you down and make it an agony to paint a picture. Why isn't their a DAW that is set up so that everything you can hear, is fine. If suddenly you can't hear anything, then there's a problem. So, as long as you can hear anything, your music is going to be fine. AI exists now. Why can't AI just make the music sound perfect without someone having to look at meters and adjust sliders? You're aware of the concept of "being in the flow" or "being in the groove", well technical stuff takes an artist out of the state of flow, it snaps you out of the groove. It makes you stop and think. All these technical things you have to consider to just make a song, get in the way of making the song. They are rules, and if you don't follow the rules, you're going to be in trouble, so you better keep your mind on the the needle and your hands on the mouse.
@dataplatter: I get that the AI thing was a joke, but yuck
@EastSideLooth: Great vid! Others simply add, over time and from experience, what sounds good in their daw of choice. The VU is simply a, as you suggested, a slower signal device. Instead of fiddling with lowering or raising the calibration, I simply just add , or subtract to what I see on VU based on what sounds good and take note of the levels for future reference.
I use the simple bar graph on the channel as references as you suggest because it is faster. The parameters I āseeā are based on experience from using my daw of choice, and a daw, (which is assumed to be known, but wasnāt mentioned ?) as we know, has much more headroom then analog. Also, I donāt know about the other meters you suggest, but I use the TB pro audio which also has a peak meter. Going back and forth between the VU and peak in one meter is super handy, and, as you said, itās free!
@nattaphoomtewarun9978: VU still classic and important for the mixed. but I used for playback and visualization to digital music playback. I love look and feel
@markus918: Hello. I installed the VU Meter on the track and I have a terrible overload, although there is no overload on the master track. Is there even a limiter installed? Could you explain what my problem is?
@AudioMasterclass replies to @markus918: I recommend that you visit a web forum that is dedicated to the DAW that you use. That is where you will get your best answer.
@markus918 replies to @markus918: @AudioMasterclass Ok! Thank you!š
@giacomogagliano8639: This guy is brilliant! Love him!
@AudioMasterclass replies to @giacomogagliano8639: So do I.
@janetscollay5598: you have 3 different meters displayed on the screen at 4min 12 secs into your video. why is the 3dB point in different places above or below centre scale on these meters?
@AudioMasterclass replies to @janetscollay5598: I'm not understanding this. If the scale matches the input level everything's OK.
@TheYougig: PPM's please!
@1976oswald: too much talking bro. sorry
@AudioMasterclass replies to @1976oswald: Filled up your brain too soon did I? Not sorry.
@stevejagger8602: Why was the analogue PPM not adopted, as it was throughout the UK Broadcast TV industry.
It provides an absolute reference for recording and transmission.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @stevejagger8602: One of the eternal mysteries of audio.
@georgelewis3047: The spanner. The spanner!
If you are unfamiliar with that term, you can find an example in the boot. The boot!
@AudioMasterclass replies to @georgelewis3047: One should always keep a spanner in one's boot.
@tuckerbingo2491: Misleading headline
@AudioMasterclass replies to @tuckerbingo2491: You're probably so clever that you can explain why for the benefit of my comment readers whose time you are otherwise wasting.
@tuckerbingo2491 replies to @tuckerbingo2491: @AudioMasterclass speaking of wasting time
@chakravarthiamithraghav8008: The spoken style of your assistant, intonation and tone kind of disturbing and makes understanding a challenge. But your reading is very comprehensible.
@patriot7734: I have the pleasure of owning a Live VU meter! No matter what rooms she is in she can tell it's too loud..she screams out an analog sound "turn that shit down", so this saves me a ton of money just on my power bill, and the risk of blowing up my speakers...I am blessed..
@WardoUSA replies to @patriot7734: Best comment of 2024
@supernaturalstrum replies to @patriot7734: Underrated comment...
ššš
@jayroland9481 replies to @patriot7734: I have a neighbour that kindly obliges me with the same.
@DalesDeadBug13: I Use One VU Meter on my Master channel.
Set all channels to "0.db"
No Plugins on any channel.
Mute all but one channel at a time.
slowly use the gain (not volume fader) and play the Instrument/vocal etc that's solo'd, until the meter needle hits "0.0" or close to it and stays that way.
Do ^ this for every channel until finished. then go into Mixing (adding Compression, eq, reverb, delay, whathaveyou. Do NOTHING on the main master bus (yet)
Once you've Mixed to your liking, then you can adjust fader volume to tracks that are clipping (or again, to your liking/satisfaction)
*I Like to set my faders to where none of the tracks Go passed the green.
Then, Move on to Finalizing
*if it's for an Instrumental : Do "Buss compression/EQ,Loudness,Limiting etc.etc.etc" whatever you can do to keep your track sounding good even at the loudest volumes on All Equipment (Monitors, Headphones, consumer speakers, car)
@IamHovaFlo replies to @DalesDeadBug13: @dalesbadbug can u explain what u mean on the last part where u stated if itās for an instrumental
@RyanHarris77: -18 dbvu is the prevailing preference of mix engineers simply because itās a very safe amount of headroom, or at least the sense of headroom because itās usefulness depends on the transients in the material. Ok, Iāll shut up and keep watching.
@Hopkins132: I didnt understand shit
@cezarcj9357: Sir, you present things in a very unique and professional way. Big like for your efforts even though you seem to do things effortlesly. Big like!
@dodgingrain3695: Eh.... just use short term LUFS for gain staging and determining perceived loudness. Skip the stone age VU meter.
@maxheadrom3088: The question that remains (i hope still when the video is over) is: what V.U. means? Thanks!
@AudioMasterclass replies to @maxheadrom3088: Volume Units. I'll be making another video on this topic in due course.
@AbiliTV: SPOT ON!
@dylanhughes4548: Poor Checo - really wish he could get a bit closer to Max just so we could have a bit of competition. Tempted to get myself one of those lovely outboard Crookwood VUs now.
@micksmith106: I like VU meters for one reason only , they look cool, and I'm of that age š
@AudioMasterclass replies to @micksmith106: I have another VU video coming up soon. Watch out for it.
@juanswitalski5427: I recall calibrating the Studer A827 as high as 375 nW/m with Agfa tape back in the 80's. Crazy, right? The Verstappen vs Checo example was unecessary. Hahaha! š
@AudioMasterclass replies to @juanswitalski5427: Agfa 468. It spooled very neatly.
@Andrii_DrD: But.. IT"S PRETTY šš
@Doonie602: So I got the Klanghelm meter after watching this video (I always use mvmeter2). I put all the settings the same on both and the Klanghelm is off by 0.2db. Whats the deal?
@miquelmarti6537: LUFS are roughtly based on those old VUmeters. Before having digital audio with humongous headroom, they were absolutely manadatory. Nowadays you just need them in the A/D stage, as 64bit DAWs have plenty of headroom..... althought it's always a good practice just to ensure you are not overclipping your plugins (wich is teoricaly not impossible).
@artysanmobile: My career began firmly in the days of the VU meter. VUs were read musically and were often accompanied by a single-level peak indicator. Between that setup and just hearing the playback, we all came to know the dynamic performance of instruments we recorded. Would it have been easier with a peak reading meter?
Of course it would!, and I soon learned to love the PPM standard meters that were so foreign to American engineers. Most Neve and SSL consoles had at least a couple of them if not all. It just took new interpretations to know how hot to track instruments with very high crest factors. This also revealed the source of the āmagicā tape yielded on every instrument. It turned out we were using tapeās complex frequency dependent compression to get our drum sounds.
It also turned out once making the change to digital recording in the 80s that we no longer knew how to get that sound which came almost automatically to us not so long before. In my opinion, this is the source of most of the discontent over digital recording at the time, and understandably so. I always tracked toms and cymbals together, noting that it sounded way better than separately. We all know now why that was and it is hellishly difficult to reproduce that sound. Tape compresses and limits in a very complicated way, fiendishly difficult to emulate.
The VU, in its own quirky way, was what told us when we were āthere.ā
@animelinux0830gamer: VU meters are useless.... to useless individuals...
@AudioMasterclass replies to @animelinux0830gamer: Haha, I love it when people think they're funny.
@giorgib: Donāt dis the VU. Those of us who are steeped deep in analog, never went into a studio without it. The digital world needs to catch up. Slow or not use it!
@TheGurner1: Nice expo! I use it a lot set to RMS as it's very close to LUFS for mastering - altogether a great Klanghelm plugin - don't think most people would need the Deluxe version though
@chriscorry7290: Very pleased to hear that the 0dBU = -18dBfs is not clearly defined on the internet, as I got tied up in all this a few months ago, and unsure which system I should be using. However, having sorted that, I now find I'm no nearer understanding all this stuff! I watched the middle part of the video several times, inc half-speed, partially because the examples precede the numbers. That the meter under-reads the perceived volume is not new to me. But what I don't get is that as the signal drops the number displayed becomes a smaller negative value, not larger - eg I was expecting a drop of 6dB to show as a value of -24dBfs...?
@Doonie602 replies to @chriscorry7290: Exactly the same here. It was literally impossible to find that simple answer and this dude in the video laid out plainly.
@dalemosdeliverers9050: European Broadcasting Union..."The EBU recommends
that, in digital audio equipment, its Members should use coding levels for digital audio signals which
correspond to an alignment level which is 18 dB2 below the maximum possible coding level of the digital
system, irrespective of the total number of bits available."... ~EBU Technical Recommendation R68-2000 Alignment level in digital audio production equipment and in digital audio recorders
@dalemosdeliverers9050 replies to @dalemosdeliverers9050: Oops... thought the video was new... my bad.
@Mitsch76: Fantastic video, giving a good understanding of what a VU is and what it can do. Well done! I studied audio engineering in the 90ies so tape recording was almost over, I started out using PT HD on a large console. Using a lot of analogue gear like preamps, compressors, eq, multi FXs, Delays....but I never recorded analogue. Nevertheless I had to read VU meters all the time on that gear. And who don't like a jumping needle with a cool light on it???
With digital processing I turned to RME and used the K metering system a long time, and still use it happily. The readout of e.g. K-12 is very useful for me.
BUT I will put the old PC to the trash, in a few days...(*crying tears*) and leave for my SSL setup. š That means I go for a VU meter again.
BTW It's a good use to compress with a VU meter showing the gain reduction, too ;-)
@dougg1075: You can have my VU meters after you pry them from my dead hands , and replace them with a spectrum analyzer. Green please
@bobshifimods7302: Anything that is unnecessary in the audio chain can potentially damage the sound. Tone controls are a complete no no in the analogue area. In the old days amplifiers were festooned with lights and they sounded terrible. It is possible to have VU meters on amps configured in such a way that sound is unaffected, but better to spend the money on a bigger transformer and/or better components.
@TharinduHimash: ššā¤
@wilsonlaidlaw: The VU meters on my Philips N4522 reel to reel (semi-pro) read noticeably higher on replay than they did on recording the same music on the tape. This does not seem to matter much on my usual new tape of RTM LPR35 which is very tolerant of over driving but I also have a lot of Ampex 406/7 tape which is much less tolerant. The machine has just been serviced with attendant elimination of various faults and improved sound quality, by TS Professional Audio in Burgess Hill, West Sussex.
@victormarshall832 replies to @wilsonlaidlaw: You can correct this by inputting a 1khz tone at 0db Peak and recording, then monitor the tape and using the two presets labelled Rec Current located on the rear panel, adjust until source & tape read the same. Useful if you use the same tape stock all the time. I use SM468/911 on my N4520/22's.
@gonnfishy2987: VU had their place in the analog world of audio! /ex radio presenter/audio engineer
@OrangeMicMusic: I can't wait to hear your opinion on gain staging since you said that inside the DAW you should not go over 0dBFS'. It's necessary or not on today's workflow inside a DAW?
Why I'm asking, because this subject continues to spark debates.
From plugin developers, where some of them are stating in their user manuals that the signal entering the plugin should be -18dBFS (0 VU), to music producers who are stating that they don't care about what's going in, it matters not to go out above 0dBFS on individual tracks or buses.
@BishopEddie5443: VU meters are a useful gauge in getting pleasing levels without clipping or unwanted distortion.
@spacemissing: The best way to learn the metering on a specific analog machine
is by recording at various different levels and listening to the results.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @spacemissing: This is true. Analogue recording is always a balance between signal-to-noise ratio and distortion. This will vary according to engineers' tastes, and of course what it is that's being recorded. DM
@COLDMKULTRA: But somehow ... We managed to produce things like "Crime of The Century" at Trident et al, using such dreadfully inefficient and antiquated technology !
Moral of the story ... you can make almost ANYTHING work ... if you learn how to use it correctly ššš
@ianl.9271: Why would a VU meter be useful on a DAW? I'm fine with the RMS/peak meters.
@kurt120032002: actually my story is quite short: I want a a cool looking box with 2 needles to move around when the music plays. I got front headphones and pre enabled and tha that means I don't even need an output at that box, it doesn't have to do anything else except look cool on my amp. I do not rout the sound out of it, it does not need to be precise, or anything else. š
@1974UTuber: A mixing desk I learned on had a VU hold function so it would hold it peak so you hot a better idea of where your levels were at.
Cant remember the brand of the desk though
@laika25: Betty is very knowledgeable AND efficient
@enewhuis: I feel like modifying my few (real) VU meters with a circuit witha reset button that shows me the max gain reached to see if I've oversaturated something I didn't quite hear, so I can crank the gain up further to make sure everything is saturated. :D j/k that A.I. animation is creapy and I never want to see it again. Forgive me I am a drummer...and don't use Google. Use Freespoke.
@EricRosenfield: That AI women is real creepy
@Invisbke: I used to use them in the old days of analog. And their pretty coolā¦.fun to ride them on the edgeā¦..
@cholkymilkmirage4984: paul mcartneys brother teaching mixing.