Audiophiles - You're wasting your money!
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Monday July 3, 2023
David Mellor
David Mellor is CEO and Course Director of Audio Masterclass. David has designed courses in audio education and training since 1986 and is the publisher and principal writer of Adventures In Audio.
@c-w-h: If you live in the city. Your ears are screwed. The stats are based on the average city persons hearing. The research did not include people who live out in the country, and people not exposed to war. The stats dont actually matter. Everyones hearing degrades. BUT! The degradation occurs around the same time your eyes become effected from age.
@bhuvansachdeva: I’m always amazed how the listening experience rarely includes the topic of room acoustics. I’ve seen stupidly expensive systems placed in proverbial bathrooms and people claiming to hear the difference when the clocking algorithm changed! The chain is as strong as the weakest link. Between the speakers and our ears lies the room.
@rains00the: besides tastes, not all rooms and hearing capabilities are equal. That's why people prefer "rose coloured glasses" presentation - in some cases, it counteracts something else in the setup (besides personal preference criteria)
@roaam78: This made me contemplate my death and the meaning of my life.
@L233233: Being able to name a note played on a piano has nothing to do with how good your hearing is, since everyone can hear it. Why not mention age? Most audiophiles are middle-aged men and they're rarely able to hear anything beyond 12 kHz anyway, which makes their wasting of money on stuff that FAR surpasses their ability to hear any difference even more funny.
I also think you're being overly polite when you compare the sound of tube amps to rose-tinted glasses when it should more appropriately be shit-tinted glasses. Wrong reproduction is wrong reproduction, no matter how much someone likes it.
The same applies to vinyl records as a medium. It's terrible from a technical point of view. You don't have to spend much money on a turntable because you should throw that garbage out anyway. Vinyl has nothing to do with being an audiophile and everything with being nostalgic and deluding yourself. OK, in that regard it has everything to do with being a audiophile.
@tonyunderwood9678: I've been a "common sense" audiophile for a long time, worked in the technical end of the business, got a batch of sound equipment, some vintage, some modern. I've been around nitwits who sneered at an amplifier that advertised .05% distortion because they themselves were "...able to hear .01% distortion" and I of course called Bullshit, then asked them how they determined the difference because the very best speakers added at least ten times as much distortion as that .01% they claimed they could hear. The one guy in question (he was considerably younger than myself and there for knew everything) countered by saying that he had speakers that were better than anything else (wouldn't say what they were) and they could reproduce sound so clean he was able to detect that .05% over that .01%. He would hear no other words on the matter. The same thing kept popping up in automotive audio, with amplifiers claiming higher and higher power outputs (bragging rights) with people swearing they could get 1000 watts of audio out of "X-brand" amplifier that had a 50 amp fuse in the C+ input power feed. Trying to explain ohms law to them was again another exercise in futility. I actually measured the output power of an identical amplifier on the bench and it made a max of 300 watts and was clipping over 1% while doing it. They claimed I measured wrong. I used a 100 amp regulated power supply capable of starting a truck... a pure resistive dummy load, fed various sine waves via a signal generator and measured the amplifier output with a scope. Still, they were convinced of that kilowatt figure because a "company rep" had told them the amp would do it. They paid for a kilowatt and they were sure as hell gonna get it, ohm's law be damned.
Sir, I agree with everything you said in this video and I'm well aware that spending more for a tiny percentage more performance you cannot hear is indeed a waste of your money. Even if you're richer than Gates himself it remains money spent needlessly except for bragging rights among your peers.
After a while, I eventually stopped debating those sorts with self-ordained wisdom. You simply can't talk to some people... :-)
@raiflores1833: Same with bad eyesight and 8k QLED TVs
@riangarianga: I didn't really waste money on hi-fi gear, because I realised it was nonsense before I actually had the money to waste. 😆
That being said, in the last few years I found that transducers make a noticeable difference, while the rest of the gear doesn't have such a big impact. I first realised this as a guitarist, when some others helped me figuring out speakers had a bigger impact than anything else in my signal chain. So I proceeded to collect 19 of them, 9 of them different iterations of the same model, but overall cheaper than 1 whole «well-regarded» amp. I settled on my preference, I found each model is a different flavour that has their own strengths and weaknesses, and I stopped caring about amps when I A/B'ed the best one I have and the regular one I played through the same speaker: the difference was minute, you could only hear it in passages shorter than 1 second.
For hi-fi audio it's more or less the same. A turntable making a difference would make sense to me (transducer), same with loudspeakers (transducers, speaker enclosures also matter), but I wouldn't care so much about amps, and certainly not about magic cables (do you want a better speaker cable? Get one with a bigger section = lower resistance). Price-wise there's no need to buy anything crazily expensive, not even transducers - unless it makes you happy to own that gear.
My latest experience: I recently got a pair of Sennheiser HD 600 headphones for about 298 € (I'm not really willing to spend more than that, and I still gave it a lot of thought), since I needed something very flat and clinical for some music production stuff, and there's some consensus about this being a good reference. Monitors and room treatment weren't options, since I move places relatively frequently. I'm really satisfied with them, they do all I expected, and they finally retired some 16-year-old and cheaper Sennheiser headphones I had, since they became a little bit muddy as they aged, and I can't buy replacement parts any more for some bits that are broken. I purchased at the same time a pair of inexpensive 24 € Superlux HD 681 headphones, which are also well regarded. Putting them to the test, I have to say that quality-wise the Sennheiser beat the Superlux, there's no match, the Superlux can't really last that long due to compromises in their design and construction. The Sennheiser is also more comfortable. However, sound-wise it wasn't quite like that. The Superlux reveal some reverb tail effects I didn't first realise through the Sennheiser, how about that. While the Sennheiser reveal a lot of detail in the high end, but anyway it wasn't really that cloudy on the Superlux. I ended up preferring the Superlux for general listening, while the Sennheiser are unbeatable on some specific pieces, especially if you want or need to focus on the high end. The Sennheiser are also much preferred for music production, but I could still do the stuff I need (I'm not a pro mixer) with the Superlux. So the Sennheiser still win, my purchase was right, and I'm bummed I didn't take the shot years ago, but other than quality and life expectancy there certainly isn't a 274 € difference in sound with the Superlux, perhaps not even a 27.40 € difference. They're just slightly different flavours, you can't get wrong with any of them. Actually go get the Superlux if you're buying your first piece of hi-fi gear, they'll be a great reference if you want to upgrade to something of higher quality later on.
We live in the golden age of audio, almost anything decent will work beautifully .That's bad news for old-school audiophiles.
@Anfield_the_place_to_be: I have Sonos arc + two sonos one (for surround) in the living room.
I have a jbl 9.1 atmos soundbar in my mancave, with detachable back speakers. More than enough for me.
My focus now is a clean setup without cables all over the room. My wife is happy😅
@Wimbelder: I have a Philips 22gf660 and 22gf661 and they work perfectly
@russbutton9347: I've been an audiophile since Nixon was president, but that doesn't mean I spend crazy amounts of money on it. The last time I purchased a commercially built loudspeaker was for my college dorm system. Everything else has been from a home brew kit. For those who love loud rock and hip hop music, I think the very best value are used rock band PA speakers. You can get high volume PA speakers with 15" bass drivers for $1000/pair and less on the used market.
I have more records than I can listen to, but I started buying them more than a decade before CDs came into being, which is why I have a decent turntable. I encourage newbies to NOT get into vinyl and turntables as they are expensive for what you get. They do sound different from digital, but there are things about digital I like better than vinyl. In the end, the differences are not big and why pay $1500 for a turntable, $400 for a cartridge and $20 for a dozen songs when for $18/month, you can subscribe to a streaming service with full CD resolution that offers you millions of songs?
Building your own loudspeakers is a huge savings and offers vastly more personal satisfaction, as well as much better sound than a commercial loudspeaker you'd buy at the same price. An even better deal is finding a used, home built loudspeaker as they typically sell at a discount. Get one that was built from a kit if you can.
@chuckhinton3994: I love your thoughts, writing and delivery here, and agree with most of it, but to defend myself as an older audiophile, the fact that I can't hear above 8k does not affect my ability to notice noise floor and distortion in the fundamental frequencies.
@weedwacker1716: I've been a Sony man all my life. I try to make daddy Sony happy, but it's tough. I know he loves me and he only hits me when it's my fault. I have to remember not to look at other brands and to leave all of my personal information out where he can look it over when he feels like it.
@theodorem5942: Back when, I was tested for aptitudes. Four of them were music. Sad to say, I fell in the 55th percentile for detecting pitch. However, I was in the 99th+ percentile for timbre discrimination. Tonally perfect hearing. I set a budget and listen to all the high-end equipment that falls in that budget. I hear the differences and always want to spend more.
@laurieharper1526: Interesting. I do have perfect pitch. I'm also a musician, so I haven't had money to waste on hi-fi. I'm looking for new speakers at the moment to replace my ancient Castle floorstanders. which I've enjoyed for 25 or so years, so I think I can count them as money well spent/not wasted. I find many domestic hi-fi speakers a little too smooth/comfortable, so am looking at studio monitors, although budget is finite. Auditioning speakers is easier for me because I can use a recording I've played on to check them, although I appreciate that I rely on memory of what it sounded like in the control room. My hearing, at the age of 70, isn't what it was. I can no longer hear bats, which I could when I was younger. My late missus retained the ability to hear them into her late 60s, so I guess all that playing loud music over the years has knocked the top off my hearing. I've always hankered after Tannoys, having enjoyed them in studios down the years, but space and budget won't permit and I don't want to get into refurbishing old ones. We shouldn't knock wealthy audiophiles. Whether or not they can hear the difference, they buy the flagship products, helping to keep manufacturers in business, which benefits paupers like me because improvements (paid for by those audiophiles with deep pockets who buy the high end stuff) trickle down to more modestly-priced gear that I can afford. More (spending) power to them, I say.
@marchervais1269: I recognized the note too but in the french notation.
Will you make me a prescription doctor?
@UltrafiAV: Some random thoughts on the subject at hand:
1) Perception is completely subjective. (You will hear and respond to things differently than I will.)
2) The law of diminishing return is a real thing!
3) Many people listen with their eyes, not their ears. (For example: "Device X costs 2 times more than device Y, therefore it MUST be twice as good.")
4) I was stunned when I swapped the RCA interconnect cables between my preamp and DAC for good XLR cables; the XLRs made the system sound audibly "better".
5) Proper stands for loudspeakers make a huge difference. So does room treatment.
6) I'm much more interested in listening to music than to gear.
7) I've assembled a modest audio system of pro gear for both music & video editing, and general streaming purposes. It cost about $5,000 Canadian ($3,700 USD). Good enough!
8) My ears aren't getting any better as I age!
9) I'd rather listen to a mono recording made in the 1950s of a stellar performance, than a state-of-the-art recording of bland contemporary music. (Of which there is much.)
10) The live music experience is fundamentally different than recorded music. (For example, it's surprising how many people have never heard a professional orchestra in a great concert hall.)
@gerrit2746: My Philips (year 1980) af-887 turntable with Grado cartridge has lower wow and flutter and better specs than a Rega 10. Almost no rumble on my old Philips too. Any audiophile shivers just looking at it.
Who cares, but: Listening to a piano on a Rega must a sobering experience.
@floydclaptonblues2: I'm using BandLab as a DAW and recording using a Roland VS1880 and Alesis XT20 Type 2. I've spent two hundred dollars total and I couldn't be happier with my results.
@yonahangelov1973: Shut up, Colin Robinson! You are just like that energy vampire from that "what we do in the shadows" series!
@andreas3896: Hi David, very impressive 🧐! Thank you very much for your honestly words ✋!
@parasiteunit: I agree about speakers, if there was a "perfect" set - how come in any notable sized recording studio... In the control room there are usually a minimum of two sets...?
Surely, if there was a set that was perfect, every single engineer and producer would use <that model> and nothing else.
It's almost as if they install a few sets to make A B comparison between speakers really. I'd also consider that switching between speakers, allows to to avoid the pitfalls of becoming too familiar with the sound of a specific speaker set and have mixes "tuned" to that one
@mariokrizan399: 👍👍👍👏👏👏👏👏
@deathzowen8644: As someone with hearing issues (I struggle with low and high range frequencies and amplitude) I hate subwoofers they add nothing but vibrations for me my main concern is speakers keeping their clarity at high volume as I have to turn them up a lot!
@noel3422: Yea cork sniffers all, sansui already surpassed every audio nervana that can exist except for cork sniffers.
@rakitakhan: I've been saying this for years. I see all of these videos that say "This is the best speaker" or "This is the amp you should buy". That's their opinion. Everyone hears differently and has different tastes. People need to get out and hear what they're buying if possible. This is much harder to do now as there are fewer hifi shops around. If you can't go hear gear for yourself, at least buy from a retailer that has a good return policy. A huge example that I've used for over 40 yrs is Bose. So many people rave about them until they hear their speakers in an A/B comparison. Many inexpensive speakers sound better than Bose to people once they hear for themselves. One other thing...don't be afraid to buy vintage gear !You have to listen for yourself people. I'll shut up. I tend to ramble on at times. Thanks for the great videos !
@interesting7906: What is this 'hearing the difference' crap? Unfortunately, you cannot BUY the best sound in the world anymore, don't even try. You'll end up buying and selling gear on Audiogon forever. However, you can LISTEN to it in the new Seoul South Korea vintage audio museum or in the Silbatone room at Munich HighEnd every May. Even if you're deaf, it will bring your hearing back! I guarantee it.😂
@lisab3396: 👍👍
@chunkycheese73: phil collins???
@kareytodd8054: Most people don't cherish their hearing, or don't realize the things they do and how it affects their hearing health. In my teens I played bass guitar with a couple of groups and collected vinyl records which lead to collecting CD's in my 30's & 40's which I enjoyed listening to. Then I started playing the bass again in the church I attended. But my job was in IT and I spent a lot of time in a large data center where the noise level was really high and over the years it affected my hearing. I began to notice that I could hear the low frequencies more so than the mid and high frequencies. I remember when I got my first set of hearing aids, I walked out the front door of my house and hearing the birds chirping again, my first set of hearing aids cost almost $6000.00 which I thought was ridiculous at the time but now I see it was money well spent. Most people don't realize that their hearing is tied to their cognitive thinking and intuition and understanding sounds and what they mean. Audiologist explained to me that your brain will forget how to process sounds if it cannot hear them, that is the reason one should seek having frequent test of their hearing when they get older. Now that I have retired I am more sensitive to sound and noise levels more and always wear hearing protection when I'm doing yard work and working with electric tools. With the aid of hearing aids I can still enjoy listening to music and singing in my church choir and playing the bass during the music service. I visit the Beltone hearing center every 3 months where they check my hearing aids and once a year they check my hearing. I do not call it wasting money, I call it enjoying life and most people take for granted the sounds we hear each and every day!
@JOEYZ-nq2gn: But the graphs it's all about the graphs who cares about the actual sound 🤷
@marcborrelli6681: Great video and I have upgraded my equipment when I have heard differences. However with age that route has come to an end and no more upgrades for me. However about 15 years ago I started buying second hand equipment and found I was getting it for about 40% of the new price.
@plopph8811: Beyond a point it is just fetishism and snobbery
@Victrola777: I hear differences everytime I change a cable !!! Just because a cable is expensive, does not mean it will sound best in your system. I have owned over 40 turntables, 50 amplifiers, and 20 brands of cables, they all have differences in sound.
@DrGerard66: Nah. I used to believe this; but more expensive equipment just sounds better. There are many parameters to the sound experience that aren't dependent on acuity of hearing per se. Soundstage, character, tone, falloff...
@joebloggs1317: I wouldn't say I'm an audiophile, and my first amp/speaker combo was bought for a party I was hosting. I picked up a dusty old Marantz amp from a second hand shop and what turned out to be a pair of Mission speakers for about £30, plugged them into my CD player and wow what a difference, I now had Lynyrd Skynyrd playing live in my living room for pennies.
I've upgraded my amp twice and finally bit the bullet and replaced the speakers, now all played from my PC via Dragonfly DAC and although I know there are far better components on the market I feel no need to chase after them.
My setup has cost me about £500 if I don't include the PC (second hand amp) and sure its not the best in the world, but its the best in my house and surely thats all that really matters.
@normloo1590: I disagree. We all have very good hearing. If you don't want to spend more money in your HiFi , STOP listening to other systems that are better than yours. " Ignorance is bliss"!
@Stelios.Posantzis: Wow! 2419 comments already (now 2420) in the space of 5 months. I guess there must be many (filthy) rich or piss-poor audiophiles casually browsing youtube videos!
That also means that the likelihood of any individual comment being read by more than half a dozen people is quite low.
Never-the-less, I'll carry on.
I agree with the assertions about loudspeakers. There was (or still is) a whole school on audio (back in the '70s/'80s) that posited that one should spend the most on their loudspeakers and then on everything else in their audio system combined. The reason is simple: there is no point source loudspeaker. Far from it, there is no loudspeaker even approaching a point source. Moreover, there is no loudspeaker driver without distortion or free of diffraction, intermodulation and wave interference effects - let alone a combination of them! Finally, in the case of multiple driver loudspeakers, there is nothing approaching a perfect crossover circuit! Of course, the listening room itself has a huge effect in the audio experience and the room-loudspeaker interaction is probably one of the biggest factors affecting the said experience. So it is correct that the listening room is pointed out as a factor here. The listening room is probably one of the most expensive parts of someone's audio system and it's also the hardest to change.
When it comes to cables, there is a caveat to the assertions made here. There are those cables - whether cheap or expensive - that simply have a bad influence on the sound signal. Certain cables (again irrespective of price) do have filter characteristics in the range of audio frequencies and those, combined with the input and output impedances and the currents traversing the cables, will have an effect - a measurable effect. Whether that effect is desired or in the correct direction, it is both debatable, dependent on the listener's hearing and the listener's preferences (whether audio or music preferences).
Finally, I agree with the comments made about the individual listener's state of hearing. This is one of the greatest determining factors that one must consider when choosing what to buy. Given that this is a factor though, it does open the question of how the audio equipment reviewers hearing is assessed or even asserted. Somehow, I think the casual audiophile and prospective consumer assumes the mass of audio equipment reviewers not only have perfect hearing but that they all have the same hearing.
@excess2533: This is a great view. During the last couple of weeks I have been looking to upgrade, and was on the brink of purchasing some new bookshelf speakers. However, I haven’t really appreciated how good my current Mission speakers are. In reality, there is currently no need to change anything.
@joebloggs1317 replies to @excess2533: Fresh music rather than speakers works for me
@arupian666: 3:19... you're missing the point of being an audiofool. Being able to SAY that you have a $1000 interconnect is a large part of the hobby. Most audiofools don't listen to music. They listen to their equipment.
@PeepingTime: 👀
@justplaincraig: Great pause for thought on your video. Even though I have the money, I vacillate cost-wise when I buy even the cheapest of anything. I've bought a pair of Sonus Faber Sonetto 3s for my living/music room. The only time in my life that I've ever considered looks as well as sound quality. Their lute-like shape lends itself better to the corners I have them in for the bass wall resonance issue. All my other audio components (Luxman and NAD) are either decades old, don't work or vastly underpowered for the speakers, so I'm trying Cambridge's Edge NQ pre and W power amps. They are demo models for a tryout which I can keep for a vastly reduced price if they work for me. I'm going all out on Chord Shawline X array balance XLR audio and IsoTek EV03 power cable to connect them, then connect cheaper for comparison. Will all the above sound better for my 58 year-old ears? The W power amp was essential for running the speakers, I really heard a big difference, nothing added, nothing taken away, I will try its partner, the NQ pre and see if I get that depth and imaging/presence I'm desperately seeking!
@StagnantMizu: i'd recommend people to look for 2005-2010 high end speaker secondhand like focals and then just trade up and enjoy each speakers qualities..
@Headsign: I have a friend who owns an audiophile shop. Now and then, he confronts me to some new equipment he offers, and this is how I came to experience speakers at prices of low- to middle range luxury cars. Each time, I told him it had been a nice experience, and I had actually been able to hear more detail and ore generous bass, but I was very happy with my stereo and speakers that cost me around €600. It's true that the Technics amp from 1980 was used and only cost me €70 plus €30 recapping. I got the old Pro-Ject turntable as a gift, but did in fact purchase a higher range Ortofon system, for around €200 and I think they sound fantastic with the pair of relatively cheap Q-Acoustics speakers. As you say, the difference between good and high-end is much smaller than the price difference. I can clearly hear the difference between a decent, middle range stereo and a cheap one, but the higher range is mostly smoke and mirror, and in any case, I'm heading towards 60, and I have a solid tinnitus in my head. Also, don't get me started about cables, because a €1000 super-high quality electric cable only goes from the amp to the wall.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @Headsign: Don't worry! I'll be covering audiophile mains cables, HDMI cables, and Ethernet cables and switches in a future video.
@Headsign replies to @Headsign: @@AudioMasterclass Brilliant. I'm looking forward. Really enjoying your channel.
@johnsuggs7828: If your equipment is better than your hearing, then there's no need to upgrade.
You won't hear the difference....
Got it in just before year's end. This is the best comment ever....and very true
@christopherjolly: I work in a video editing studio with speakers and screens that are calibrated to be as accurate to the source as possible - but the reason this accuracy is required is not so much for the pleasure of the listening and viewing experience and more to do with catching and removing imperfections before the production is released so that they aren’t revealed by any particular piece of equipment used by the viewers/listeners at home. I’m much more concerned with people enjoying what I create than caring about what they play it on.
@justintonature519: So first of all I'm writing this after I watched to the end 😂. And talking about the stuff I got for my wife and me, I'm a huge fan of upcycling. My Turntable a Technics SL10 payed 410 with orig. Cartrige in good condition swapped it for a Pickering I really like the sound of that one and sold the Cartridge for 390. My current amp is a Denon AVR 2105 for watching movies with surround sound. Front Preouts to a Crown xls 1002 for now but the Mids and Highs are a bit to harsh for my taste. My solution bi wireing, the packet with the stuff needed to get my main Speakers ready should arrive later today. The main Speakers someone build back in the 90's with the Pilot CD 2000 in mind they are 160x40x40 something like that built like an absolut tank 3cm thick MDF. The old Seas 33 had seen better days, Maybe one time i will give them a comeplete overhaul but for now i adjustet the Crossover and put in a compareble Visaton TIW 300. I'm happy for over three years now. But I think too that there is no PERFECT Speaker for everyone, it can always only be perfect for your own taste. I mean i couldn't find anything that sounds bad on my speakers if the qualaty of the recording itself is good. But my speakers are on the higher and of the detail spectrum so if I playback some old Mp3's from back in school you start to cry an ran out of the room. If you play those tracks on a Small pair of PA that we baught back in school days for small partys its all fine there is just no midrange. Or lets say your into Hardcore or Frenchcore like Dr Peacock. Than you definitely want some midrange and good stable hights with instruments like a Violine playing live, but than also more Kick base around 200hz and not a more or less flat line down to 20hz or as close as you can get there. But my experience is if you also play classic in high quality or let me say most things mastered in really good and High quality and you have Speakers that have a mostly flat frequency range, I almost never use an EQ anymore. At least playing at louder volumes. at lower volumes I sometimes go for a slide V curve. BTW Greetings from Germany wish you a happy Cristmas time Manfred.
@sidneylove4488: There is truth to what you are saying. Even the best human hearing possible has limitations. Just in one area , that of total harmonic distortion, once the total harmonic distortion gers to a certain low point if it gets any lower the human ears could not tell it. We can only hear so well. The human ears have limitations. Once sound gets to a certain quality, if it got better nobody could tell the difference. People have different sound preferences, and different levels of ability to hear like you said. Those who have tinnitus, hear a constant ringing of the ears that is a symptom of hearing loss. They are not going to hear certain sounds anyway. I have had , even as a very young man, stereo equipment that was better than my ability to hear when I could hear very well. One thing I have learned in life is that one must decide what sound equipment they are going to get , or not get anything. I value review ratings on audio products, but people are going to give high ratings to numerous audio products. The thing is is that one must get something or nothing. In the end, I myself don't ultimately care what other people think about audio equipment. I initially value reviews and ratings. For example if nearly everyone says that a certain subwoofer is nothing is junk , then I will take their word for it, but in the end each person must decide for themselves. That is what I do. It's my audio equipment and that's it. I can't buy all the good stuff, so I just buy what I do. One definitely does not haft to spend a fortune to have high quality sound. Not everyone is into having a movie theater in their own dwelling, for example. I myself could care less for having an imax theater in my own living room. Therefore I definitely save alot of money because I am only an audiofile . I don't care about movie surround sound. Therefore my receiver is 2 channel stereo only. To me they are more of a bargain than a budget system. I don't need a 7.1 surround sound system just to listen to music. So I save alot of money right there. All I need is 2 channel stereo with a decent subwoofer turned down just so I hear a little bit more bass. I save a fortune like that. Even a subwoofer, in my case is simply for " a little bit more bass." Therefore I don't need a subwoofer that simulates an earthquake.
Some people have alot of money. Some people have, as they say, " more money than sense." I have better things to do than spend a fortune on audio equipment. I can honestly say that if the audio equipment I have sounded any better I wouldn't be able to tell it. I agree with you. The human ears have limitations, even for those who have extraordinary human hearing. Even those who have exceptional, outstanding hearing can only hear so much and so well. I believe it is possible for audio equipment to sound better than we can hear ,as you were saying. If it does, then it is a waste of better sound than we can hear and a waste of money. I fully see your points and I consider some of it to transcend being your opinion, and to in fact be the truth. If stereo equipment sounds better than we can hear and we couldn't tell any difference then it would be a waste of money to have higher specifications than we could hear if it costs more money. I consider that to be true, and not just an opinion.
@seabud6408: The most balanced and accurate.. to my knowledge .. overview of audio and the human who listens to it I’ve heard. Great advice. I don’t have a hugely expensive system because I improved it until I couldn’t imagine improvements which , realistically I would notice. My amp and speakers cost a little over £1000. LS50’s and a monitor audio A100 amp dac combo with airplay - £200 (which was half price) Some may feel it’s a little bright but I prefer that. When I record my acoustic guitar and playback .. it sounds as close to it as makes no difference.
@glmb8072: Mystifying being able to tell cables apart is nothing but a popular kind of reverse pretentiousness whenever something is not immediately understandable. (Reverse pretentiousness is one of the most popular kinds.)
But cables can have quite different resistance, and this alters the sound clearly. If nothing else. If one can't tell different cables apart (it almost doesn't matter which ones, as long as they are not the same product) - regardless of what ready-made explanation is available (that's not decisive in empiricism) - one really has difficulty hearing (probably psychologically!) or is rather wilfully ignorant.
(And it's generally acknowledged that the only difference between the Sennheiser HD600 and the "bassier" HD650 was a different cable... I don't have any technical inside knowledge of their build, but I can confirm that their different cables are a classical example of a different sound. The HD650's one is sturdier and cheaper and was said to be "lower quality" due to higher resistance. The fragile HD600 cable was a good income for Sennheiser... But the HD600 could even be made to sound really bright and more centered with some cables. Of course a matter of taste, to say the least. The latter was not very expensive some years ago by the way, it was by a small cable manufacturer on ebay who evidently was more reliable than standard Chinese alternatives which often sound more muffled and grainy. One doesn't deliberately have to go for high prices. I now have the HD650 cable for the HD600, because it's cheaper and sturdier both.)
Also being able to tell pitch apart (including knoweldge of music theory...) is not at all determinative of whether one can tell audio quality apart. This is similar to claiming one can't tell audio apart, full stop. Obviously nonsense.
This is also some kind of obfuscating pretentiousness (albeit not reverse here).
As the video goes on there are also simplistic overgeneralizations/clichés like "50 years of audio development!!" As if no one had ever been able to hear a difference between their first cheap laptop or a sizeable audio converter - or their shitty Fiio DAC and a more legitimate one (older and new both)... In no few cases is this the reason to focus on audio at all. Then the technical differences are mostly blatant, but it's not allowed to talk about that. (And as if progress were completely linear over every point in time and automatically applied to every device in the world.)
There is potential to such a video, but apparently no topic online can avoid veering into an extreme and populism for dullards.
@spyderhead7160: My waste of money? Grado 3000x headphones. Ribeye cost with Sirloin quality.😎
@Silencer84: Absolutely loved this video. Thank you for talking some sanity into this bizarre phenomenon of gear buying frenzy and snobiness.
@lensman1: I can hear differences between cables. Many people can. But it’s always more apparent in high end systems that reveal details more so than consumer level mass market brands. I’ve been comparing many brands over the years and there is always a difference. Sometimes it’s very small. But each metal has its own sound signature and then the shielding etc adds character to that. I’d prefer to not spend that money but when you are strangling the quality from your high end gear with basic cables then why even buy high end gear. Proof in the pudding.
@SunnyEmotions: I agree with you on every single point!
@04DynaGlyde: Thank you from Texas!
@greenmarine5: Being an industrial color professional for the last 35 years, I can attest, the same goes with vision as well.
@stinger3176: Did someone told you that you look like Paul McCartney 🤨
@AudioMasterclass replies to @stinger3176: My answer is in here https://youtu.be/aB3JNivlMnI
@patriotav697: I believe in a good amp, custom made speakers from german chipboard, carpeted for audio warmth and better vibration absorbtion. Tested, always works, amazing results. The rest is a waste of money. Human ear is limited.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @patriotav697: German chipboard - the original and the best.
@BlackRay-ie1ei: I think you'd have some fun reviewing "audiophile network switches". hehehe.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @BlackRay-ie1ei: I might. Or these https://www.google.com/search?q=audiophile+ethernet+cables
@NutritionalZero: Yeah that's a subscribe from me
@gnorpflorbsen8665: I feel like people should shut up about their magical ability to hear stuff unless they've been involved in objective and legitimate double-blind studies. Its also hilarious to me when someone starts boasting about their expensive system but they don't realize they are basically rendering it useless by using it in terribly untreated room. The room reflections and absorption so are incredibly important.
@futures2247: this is why is also completely pointless but weirdly compelling to listening to reviews of speakers and etc when you really need to demo them yourself.
@donepearce: Do NOT spend money on kit. It is wasted. Spend it on the room - get rid of the modes as far as you can. And when the room is as good as it can be, buy Sonarworks. It is a speaker (NOT ROOM) equalisation system that is used in almost all studio control rooms because it works.
@rogerturner5504: I have two 40-year-old systems that I am perfectly happy with -
1) Rega Planar 3 (ACOS Lustre arm) turntable, Ortofon VMS30E Mk 2 cartridge with Shibata hyperelliptical stylus, NAD 3020E amp and KEF Cadenza speakers.
2) Simple CD deck (all share the same D to A conversion so no point in spending a fortune here), Cambridge Audio A5 amp, KEF Celeste IV speakers.
Signal lost at source can never be recovered. Tone controls add distortion so keep them flat.
If there is a human pursuit where the law of diminishing returns applies. it is Hi Fi.
@7Clay7Miller7Jackal7: I'll stick with 3-way PA systems for my hearing needs. I love being able to hear my music throughout the whole house and outside without moving the speakers from the basement.
@astcal: Perfect speakers: Neumann and Genelec.
@zappo7771: Yes yes yes... seems to me that my 3 turntables & styli all sound different... and the test vinyl - three different lps - all sound different turns out that I have determined that each sounds best on one of the three, that is... each lp has a unique matching table&styli... but could be I have reached the edge of my brain / understand of what it should sound like... rock n roll is like that, would i know perfection if it hit me in the face? But tables -> up to preamp & speakers are now the biggest variables I have found... preamp, amps the in-between have less of an impact in the price I cool in... u make me think, thanks
@owenlaprath4135: Best digital audio source: my cheap 99 dollar refurbished computers! No CD player or "streamer" is noticeably better, but one can easily spend thousands on CD transports, DACs, and "streamers", but a 99 dollar refurb computer with the same standard parts found in the boutique pieces is as good, or better!
A thousand dollar turntable is only worth it, if you have the 10 thousand dollar chain, from cartridge, phono-preamp, preamp, to main amp, and speakers, to go with it, and you have the half million dollar house to actually crank the volume and listen in a sound proof room or out in the wilderness, without bothering neighbours! My 500 dollar turntable (saved from trash by a friend with a HiFi store) with its 200 dollar cartridge and stylus combo, feeding a 100 dollar phono-preamp, 200 dollar preamp, 200 dollar amp, and 100 dollar speakers, playing at low volume in a house that is not sound-proof, is the best system I can practically use myself. I would love to have better, because I have those million dollar ears, but my zero budget (on disability for good reasons) allows for nothing else, and I would not be able to listen at higher volumes, necessary to really hear some subtle sounds, because I'd be evicted!
@Keepingupwiththecarper: Love this view 😊. It’s logical.
@rastavoima: Old man how can hear go rage😂
@johnvore: Watching this Video, today I took 2 ear tests. I Passed both tests.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @johnvore: Well done!
@petemaloy51: Terrible video, narrows down the listening experience to " detail in high frequency's " very very flawed analysis, there are many many other factors that contribute to the listening experience.
@marcelbrummer5098: Such a lovely and intelligent uncle you are..Would even love for you to do a review on my only and endgame audio setup..I have a Fiio E10k hooked up to my Samson sr850 headphones on my pc.I use that for gaming and some hardstyle music..with the bast boost off always..I think I like a balanced sound more whereby I can differentiate all the sounds as well as an open airy soundstage for pinpointing stuff in the h3adphone space..And I really do think my setup is all I will ever need.I have used those hardphones for 6 years and the Fiio E10K I bought 3 years later as the volume needed a boost
@x-mo3713: Speakers, if you haven't heard DALI Rubicon 8, you missed out.. I have not heard any of their more expensive, but the step up from the opticon is nuts. and well both of course have the Hybrid tweeter, that does down to 2.5Khz. check if you can hear a piano on them..
@evertschut: I'm a musician. I don't waste money on hifi, I prefer to spend it on a new guitar. There is a minimum level of acceptable reproduction of music however. I hate telephone music. But my not too expensive studio monitors will do fine, as will my 35 year old mid priced hifi set.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @evertschut: One can never have too many guitars. I have nine, so far.
@fifthelementisHstring: I started listenning hoping he would annoy me, so I could write a flamable comment and be pleased with myself. Instead I agree. So please tune down the sensible videos, so I can go back to commenting stupid idiots! Which this video creator is far from.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @fifthelementisHstring: I like flammable comments. Fun to read and often giving me ideas for new videos.
@MrMightyZ: When I swapped to suspended, gold cables I also had my ears gold plated.
You’d be amazed how many orchestral performances include mice burping and farting.
@Turboy65: You're not wasting your money if you're walking into a new purchase with your eyes wide open, and you end up not regretting your purchase some time down the road. This is all about being happy. If having stuff that you THINK sounds "better"...but this can't be proven.....is what makes you happy, then that's fine. And thank you for your generous contribution to the local economy with your purchase.
Don't be one of those dickheads who feels that he has to put others down for purchasing things that YOU don't see the point of. I know this type of person well. In some cases I AM that dickhead. But I'm honest about it.
@RogueAstro85 replies to @Turboy65: He mentioned practical reasons on why not to buy something beyond a certain range because they will be spending money with no improvement. He never shamed anyone and said that if you want overpriced systems for the brand name, go ahead.
@k-9thecat765: If only I had the foresight to buy up as much of the analog pro audio outboard gear that was selling for hardly nothing....
Now it's worth a small fortune...
Preamps, summing mixers, tube gear...
damn...
@k-9thecat765: 👍
Bought my Carver Pre & Power at age 19, 1987
Still have, never replaced & still looks new ...
Paired with Polk Audio speakers...
The local store had a deal where you could upgrade every year and get the amount paid toward a new set as long as the new set was at least half again as much as the pair you're trading in...
So a $200.00 pair would trade up to $300.00+...
A $600.00 pair would trade up to $900.00+...
I did this 4 years. In a row...
I thought it was great since every year you got a brand new pair and restarted on the 5 year warranty if you chose not to upgrade the next year...
Your trade-ins would then be sold as used...
Oh, you had to keep the original boxes they came in too .....
I decided not to invest in vinyl, no turntable for me.
Love the look of the high-dollar models but way too much money for me....
@deyh5664: "there is a point that it can't get better" is that so? I disagree. There is always improvement possible in audio.
@evilpoon951: Best speaker, Ruark Solstice. When I bought them. They sounded better, in almost every way to anything that I'd owned before. They also looked fantastic (Ruark were originally a cabintmaker company, who started making their own complete speakers). I mention the looks because there is probably bit of a psycological boost that might help the brain to percieve a more satisfying sound. That's probably similar to the experience when people smoke canabis and listen to music (I don't know if any studies have been done on that sort of thing)
The Solsticees are 3 way floorstanders, over a metre tall) They separate enclosures for bass and for the mids and high, separated by elastomer puks. They were bought about 25 years ago and retailed at about £5000 (£10,000 taking inflation into account). The whole system cost me about £11,000 (£24,000 today).
I could hear the difference between my old £3000 (£6000) system.
Unfortunately, I have never been able to spend that sort of money, since then, so I haven't tried any new gear at round about the same price. I did listen to some other more expensive stuff at the time and heard differences but I couldn't say that anything was definatively better.
I think I agree with your theory. I think I've probably hit the upper level of HiFi for me and I think that's mostly the fault of lovely speakers.
I noticed in the coments that some people have metined soundstage. I've had the speakers set up in 4 different rooms, as I've moved about, over the years and I think that the soundstage has changed the most. There have been issues with bass in some rooms but I expect that that could probably have been fixed by treating the rooms.
I don't know if I am an audiophile or not. I've always loved listening to music. I used to go to a lot of live music, when I was younger. I wish I'd worn earplugs or that someone had turned the sound down.
Over the years, I've always heard something more in the music that I've listened to, as I'd moved up the ladder of Hi-fi costs. Real improvements that I was almost instantly aware of.
I think your thesis correct and I'd be willing to test it further, if anyone fancies funding me. It shouldn't cost more than about £100,000. I think that the world needs to know.
Seriously, though I'm sometimes surprised by hostility against audiophiles, in forums and comments etc. Audiophiles are just another minority interest group that has been encouraged to spend more and more money on their interests, by greedy companies, who have been looking for yet another minority interest group to exploit. Unfortunately that's just put the price up for everyone else. (Save the ire for the expoiters not the exploited).
Well that turned into a much bigger post than I expected. Thanks for the Audio Masterclasses, I've only recently found this channel and I've enjoied the content.
@shimone6116: I agree with your point that "the pricier the better" does not fit in most cases. I once gave some of my headphones to friends and almost half of them liked the cheapest ones the most.
However I think that there are quite some differences between amps or DACs even less audiophile people will hear (f.e. if you compare delta-sigma to r2r DACs).
If it is worth the price if you reach a certain point (and f.e. take tube amps into your consideration) is another question. ;)
@ericcole3917: Tube maybe the way.but I am a intergrade amplifier lover or reciever. And in the reciever world you got to have at least 200 watts in 8ohms and 400 watts in 4ohms. just in case the artists records to low.and the extra wattage will clean that up.and only way I can make 100 watts powerful is running 16ohms speakers and some 8ohms 🤣.on a 8ohm reciever.
@rochester212: Enjoyed the video. I have bought two pairs of Dali speakers simply because others on the internet had a good opion about Dali speakers in general. I am happy to report that they were right, and both the Dali 104 and Dali Zensor 5 are musical and enjoyable to listen to. The sound they make is different and each imperfect in their own way, but the important part for me is that the sound is lively and enjoyable, just like a live music concert. Not all speakers are like that, for example most of not all boombox and bluetooth speakers are not musical or detailed in any way, despite costing serious money in some cases.
@Mr.Canuck: Audiophiles chase subtleties in sound that only dogs can hear, they convince themselves otherwise. The market is a snake-oil salesman's heaven where placebo sound and silly buzzword gadgets reigns supreme, most audiophiles lofty claims would immediately fall apart in a double blind test with most of this crap, tinnitus and age guarantees it.
I slowly pieced together a modest system at around 6k and over the years Ive swapped out a couple things here and there, now with the right music/mood it can bring a literal tear to my eye and that has always been my desired end game, Im 100% content.
Sure you wont get decent sound with dollar store-eque level equipment and lamp wire but blowing 10s -100s of thousands on equipment is well past the point of diminishing returns and is simply pompous bragging rights for people with more money than common sense. Great, a 100k turntable with 200k speakers and 6' 20k raised cables sprinkled with the de-ionized tears of baby Jesus etc ...to play old scratchy LPS? As embarrassing as it is delusional, sunk cost fallacy at its finest. HPs is another matter entirely, my sibling has a ridiculous amount of various gear and literally over 2k pairs of HPs, I A/B swapped a $1k pair of earbuds from Japan and another that were $15....we both agreed the differences were surprisingly almost negligible. There truly are diamonds in the rough out there one just has to discover them.
Do some research, read some reviews, maybe check out some forums and take every claim and opinion with a grain of salt because of course your ears/music are not their ears/music. The best route? Bring a few pieces of music to a reputable non poncy dedicated audio shop and listen to systems/components that are NOT NOT NOT in a highly specialized treated room and youll eventually find your ideal pairings. The biggest factors to consider are quality speakers and amp to fill the room, speaker placement, maybe a little room treatment if youre feeling fancy and a modest system that you can afford with quality files without all the fluffy snake-oil BS. IMO its all you require to achieve really great sound that suits your ears/tastes
@bartvanransbeeck1341: The acoustics of the room is the main primordial item in the system...without good acoustics it's impossible to have nice sound
@johnmcevoy3598: Your equipment doesn't need to be better than your hearing, so upgrade your hearing if you can, but at the very least, don't ruin it.
@matsnerga: I have paid 0$ for my setup. A free nad 214 power amplifier and RCF 44T monitors. Playing from a steinberg c1 interface bought used for 20 bucks. To me it sounds beautiful. Turns out if you do people favours and tell them you like audio equipment they will happily give you their old gear that is gathering dust in their basement for free
@allybeetulk1457: I sing as a hobby so copied the note with my voice and thought A or G, most likely A. So annoyed i didnt click that meant it was in the middle 😂
@matsnerga: I went to tradeschool for electronics in highschool and we got a lot of broken electronics donated so we could train to fix them, one of such thing was a broken audioligist suitcase for testing hearing, we fixed and it would beep at different frequencies and you would press a button if you heard the beep and at the end it would even print out a graph of your ears frequency response on ribbon-paper. Testing our hearing quickly became a daily competition where we would compete and see who could hear better... we where 15 students competing and we probably tested our hearing hundreds of times over several months. The interesting thing was that the "champ" of the class was the only girl in the class and she could 100% reliably hear up to 23-24khz! Her hearing was extremely good and she would beat everyone else ten out of ten times... I wonder how "expensive" ears she had.. wish i had her earing!
@classicallpvault8251: Not an audiophile but a music enthousiast and a frugal one, for that matter. Rather spend a thousand euros on classical LPs and CDs. Some people take pride in spending lavishly on audio equipment, but I take pride in spending as little as possible for an above average sound system.
I have a pair of Bowers & Wilkins DS4 speakers (which were in pristine condition sound-wise, just some cosmetic damage which I fixed with furniture repair wax) and a Kenwood stereo set built around the A-83 amp and it cost me a grand total of 100 euros. Took the time to run all the RCA and speaker cables through a stainless steel cable channel (which acts as a Faraday cage) behind my record cabinets so there's no electromagnetic interference from the power cables. This was for free, came from the scrap metal of an electrical company that my best friend works for.
I also installed 80 euros worth of acoustic foam from China, including bass traps in the corners and 2 30cm cubes where the walls and the ceiling meet, and have a Persian rug hanging on the wall behind me. My next improvement will be getting a small mini PC (like a HP Deskmini G1 - should cost no more than 75 euros refurbished) and using a USB audio interface (I can actually use my Yamaha Clavinova as a sound card!) running SonarWorks and a calibration profile tailored to the acoustics in my room. The amp has a passthrough input and output where one can connect an EQ or a CX decoder, so I can connect the audio interface there and apply SonarWorks room correction to anything playing back via the amp even if the source is analog.
Had my old piano teacher visit me a while back, he's an avid CD collector who has a high end electrostatic speaker set from Quad but he was quite impressed with how my listening room sounds. The difference is that my setup is 60 times cheaper than his 😅
@pearlharbor8065: Hey, dont tell me what im wasting my money on...i dont tell you you're wasting your time with the hair treatments
@gregbailer8701: $2500 ears and a $500 credit card limit. Abe Lincoln says...spend $450 on music and $50 on a system to play it! Alan Parsons agrees.
@gruanger: I am not a file ;) I actually don't have great ears and am completely not a music person but I do think a lot of the ability to hear more is training. I have been a gamer all my life and I do tend to have top end stuff like 240 hz monitors. People would always tell me you can't notice. All those people had never had experience with high FPS and frame rates. I could immediately tell if the frame rate is wrong, always, every time. I cannot handle 60hz monitors including at work. I use my own monitors. I bring this up only to say that once you have the experience and training and use better equipment, you can tell if something is worse and why. I have a feeling they can and do hear way more than the average person. But as in gaming or life, those people are the minority and nobody caters to those people and there isn't a point to seeing that level of diminishing gains. For instance, cables are just straight snake oil and quite a lot of Audiophiles ideas are absurd, but there is improvement as people seek the best, cleanest, etc.
The easiest way to show someone monitor refresh rate is text scrolling or camera panning shots like a helicopter panning across a mountain. You have to find ones where they filmed at higher refresh rates and have uploaded it at higher rates, but that at least can help people see 60hz vs 30hz, etc.
@user-zq3wt4qq9b: so true
@stereopolice: Excellent video. One of the best on the web. Speakers and room treatments are a good use of $$$. Otherwise, don't spend more than $1K on anything. Rule of thumb. Unless, you prefer certain types of distortion. However, there is one thing: The psychological factor - for example, if one "thinks" for example that an R2R ladder is more organic than a Delta Sigma, then the brain might be re-wired to believe it. This might actually work, though it might not be physically real, but real to one's brain; thus true to that person. Hence, Hi End Audio. Cheers ...
@AudioMasterclass replies to @stereopolice: I'd say spend more on speakers if you can. Mine cost £2k (adjusted for inflation) secondhand and I'm very contented.
@KickassDubstepHD: Excellent video, agree with everything you said and love your sense of humor. Can't wait to watch some of your other videos
@davidclark8132: Not a perfect speaker, but all the speaker that 90 percent of people will ever need.
Totem Rainmakers: CAD$500 used just last week.