Audiophiles - You're all wrong!
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Actually your description is incorrect. The stereo imagine is not dancing around. The stereo image of the clarinet is precisely predictable. The issue is that the right channel is only picking up the high frequencies, and the left channel is only picking up the low frequencies. So the image is not moving unpredictably as would be implied by the term dancing around, but is rather precise in its image.
A clarinet that directs high frequencies to one side and low frequencies to the other would be a fascinating instrument.
@@AudioMasterclass Or just done with EQ. Seems likely an XY mic placement with a gentle high pass and low pass filters. There is plenty of overlap in the center frequencies, so the transition from left to right is smooth, but listening closely the left-right image is very frequency dependent. It is very consistent.
I recently got comfortable with my own 'audiophile' setup with a DAC, AMP and the new R70x Refine. I am sad to say I could not hear the wandering but on one lower note. Perhaps I'm spoiled by the over-stimulating electronic music I often listen to that takes the stereo profile from maximum left channel, to maximum right channel multiple times over in a matter of seconds.
There us nothing wrong with spends lots if money on audio equipment if you want the best
So it all comes down to taste. Even the hypothetical orchestral recording standard doesn’t exist. It depends on where you are sitting. 😂
When adding a zero or two to the price of gear only results in incremental improvements in sound quantity, then music ceases to be a part of the hobby. I like music too much to be an audiophile.
i could hear it, i am an audiophile, and i thought it was intentional to give the recording more playfulness.
The way that the clarinette is jumpig and paning throughout the clip is not tasteful to my ears. It makes it somewhat harder to enjoy the overall performance.
These so called audiophiles are just “showing off” people. I listen music every day. My equipment isn’t cheap, nor very expensive. Just the most important to me are the speakers. They aren’t bad or good ones. It’s abu what sound you like. The best speakers to me can be the worst speakers for someone ele and vice versa. There’s no need to spend an extravagant bunch of money to listen to music. And the most important is the music, not the gear. I have the money to buy very expensive gear but I don’t buy it. The sound I have is great, so why should I so called “upgrade” ? What’s great about audiofiles is that at least they make some people richer 🙂
As a 17 year old guy with 200€ HD560S I wouldn't consider myself an Audiophile, but still above the average. Music is really important for me and it drives the directions for my life. When I listen to Hi-Res music, it's not about having a perfect recording, a perfect balance between L and R and mixing. I take the music file I receive as perfect. If the recording is biased to the left I take that "AS IS" and see it like "Okay that's how it was supposed to be when it got recorded". I don't see it as an issue or a faulty recording.
However, I want to hear every detail in all of its clarity when I listen to music. That's why I've bought expensive headphones and when I am older even mroe expensive headphones. Because I can immediately tell the difference between my HD560S and all the "gaming headphones" for a similar price, that my friends have.
This is overthinking, nearing perfection. Now I know I'm not an audiophile.
Strictly speaking you shouldn't listen on headphones if you want the music to approximate a real live performance, because they tend to make it sound like the music is inside your head.
I think the issue with trying to replicate how it would sound in a concert hall is that there is no one definitive way to do that. Does the concert sound the same from everywhere in a hall? Do microphones and other recording equipment add their own alterations to the sound? This is why a recording should be considered its own unique experience.
OK, seeing as you've come back to this. In your original look at this, I said in my comment that I heard it but didn't think of it as a fault as such, actually I think I mentally put it down to room acoustics of the hall. But no, I've been thinking about it, it's the way the mics were arranged by someone who didn't know what he (or she) was doing that we were hearing.
I did ask why so many mics were used for the recording, you said they didn't use all of them, but I think they did use the two on stands close to the conductor pointing straight ahead toward the soloist and that they were panned left/right. Now why they would have done that is beyond me, but it explains what we're hearing. The soloist wouldn't have to move far at all to leap about the stereo images like, as you so eloquently put it, a demented frog with a substance abuse problem.
I really don't get that mic set-up at all. Why would you ever have two live mics mounted parallel, close together (but not co-incident), like that? And certainly you wouldn't pan them left/right, there will also be phase differences between the two mics which would do weird things to the sound stage if you did.
My way of recording a concert like this would have been essentially a crossed pair of mics - as coincident as possible - somewhere close to the conductor. Several such pairs at different distances from the orchestra might be an idea and maybe a few other mics just in case something needs a bit of re-enforcement. But those two at the front pointing straight ahead, no, that's just plain vanilla wrong.
As regards audiophiles though, they wouldn't be interested in this because they don't listen to the music, they listen to their equipment.
The highter noter are right channel
I don't think any other commenter has noticed this. Well spotted.
I should be a videophile because I can't stand every iteration of the music with the video of the "forest": besides that clipping due to the sunlight, there is that blue flat little line on the bottom of the screen that appears, for example, at 8:03 and keeps moving like a download animation till the end at 8:24. It should be a reflection in some original video that has been cropped or something worse. If you want to see it, you should see the video without the player controls, so go to 8:00, let it play and move out from the player so that controls will disappear.
If you didn't notice it that's fine, if you don't see it now please consult a very good ophthalmologist. Full screen is very nice, it seems like some VGA revival hidden animated glitter. 🙃
That ai girl scares the shit outta me ngl.
That's is personal style I accept but still wrong 💯
Exactly ,I found unbalanced volume and more.
All I can get from this, is a little bit of overlapping stereo. And a few noise grains.
Exactly. Comments in the other video were praising the movement, but in a concert you don't hear any movement because the soloist is sufficiently far way from you that the movement is irrelevant.
Love this guy, mentioned my old z5500 in his other video, now he says no logitechs allowed... (not an audiophile because of price) would love to though. Again, love your vids mr.
Wow. For a bloke that seems to have an issue with "audiophiles" you don't half get bogged down in what you think "should" be a "correct" recording of an orchestra. Be gone from my YouTube feed.
Oh dear. You don’t like it that I have opinions. You’re not going to like my channel so please stay away.
You’re right. We gotta make it as accurate to the experience of being in the music hall. That is why we should put mics in every single seat in the audience, and make as many tracks as there are seats so you can choose which seat you can “sit” in. And let’s include every single tiny sound by the audience. And finally, let’s include the waiting period before the concert. You know what that’s not enough. Let’s include the buying of the ticket, and the drive to the concert. Then maybe we can be closer to the classical concert experience that is correct
During BBC Proms season, I devote nine hours to each concert I attend. Can’t wait for next summer.
I'm getting an impression that the worst kind of an audiophile is the author of the video himself.
If I did aspire to become an audiophile then, yes, I'm sure I'd want to be the worst kind.
Wow this was majorly insightful! ( Brilliant) !!! This is why I keep coming back.
i heard it! 230usd iems... i thought i would be wrong but it was right the stereo imaging!!
The "axiom" that classical music 'is' or 'should be' as close to the 'concert hall experience' as possible is naive and wrong. There are countless techniques on great classical records where this 'axiom' is intentionally broken by engineers et al.
However it would be correct to say "SOME recording engineers attempt to trick the listener to thinking the are getting the as close to the concert hall experience as possible - while attempting to hide many compromises." Many others don't.
Even if that "axiom" was true, the most obvious issue breaking that rule is the obviously distorted clarinet. Unless you're attempting to say the clarinet was playing through a valve amp in the "concert hall experience".
If you're going to be polemic, at least get it right.
An axiom is a fundamental assumption or starting point that we accept as true without proof and it forms the foundation of a logical system. So I based my argument on an axiom that I explicitly stated that I made up myself, also saying that I could have started from a different axiom. If you're going to be difficult, at least try to take in and understand what I said.
I have an interesting perspective on this. I have used cheap earbuds, very high quality headphones, and a budget mid range JBL headset. While the cheap earbuds cannot pick up on this defect, the budget JBL's pick it up easily. This would not be the case for any budget headphones just ten years ago. What this means, is that the performance floor for average or budget headphones has risen dramatically. The defect is easily heard on my 30$ JBL headset. Headsets often have slightly compromised audio compared to their headphone counterparts. But now, between my JBL and my expensive and high end [entry-level high end/ -200$ range] headphones from Audiotechnica, this defect is not any more difficult to make out in the JBL's. The ATH-60X technically sounds better, but the fact that track separation and sound discernment have come so close to this in my budget headset, not even a dedicated headphones but a headset of all things, is nothing short of incredible. It is so exciting to see the performance floor rise so rapidly. Budget headphones from just 10 years ago would not come close to where they are today. We are quickly approaching a future where the performance delta between budget and entry high end headphones will be shrunk to the point many will not even perceive the difference. Audiophiles will of course hear the difference, but the perceived difference is shrinking and it is an exciting phenomena to witness. Great videos!
What you seem to think of as an issue isnt an issue at all and is just the quirk of the recording.
Audio doesnt have to replicate the music hall experience. If you want the music hall experience, then go to a music hall.
As someone that has quite decent hearing but would never call himself a audiophile, i have some high quality reference audio stuff for editing and tried quite alot gear thats out there. I find it funny that people use reference high quality studio headphones and say they do it hecause it sounds good not because there pretentious
You really think someone that records/mixed something doesn't know how most consumer audio gear is tuned ? Reference audio gear sounds funny enough incredibly flat and not really ,,fun" i bit higher treble and base mainly makes music more energetic and fun to listen to if not overdone.
Even tho i have high quality stuff i woule never go for a walk with something like that i use my sonyxm5 headphones via bluetooth 😂. There comfortable convenient and sound incredibly fun and have great noice cancelling.
People cry about compress from Bluetooth and swar by vinyl meanwhile yes its analog audio and isnt compressed. There clear physical limitations specially with very high and very deep tones do to the movement of the needle witch cause more loss of detail then modern high quality Bluetooth codecs. Yes Vinyl have a special kinda sound and feel to them, but its at a high pirce that being degradation over time, and even faster degradation while listening.
Meaning only way to experience the music as it was ,,intended" on a vinyl is when its brand new/first few times of listening.
If you think you can hear the difference between high Bitrate streaming and vlac (and that is indeed a noticable one for some people) do that. Oh and everything marketing itself as ,,for audiophiles" is a scam. Electroboom and linus tech tips made quite a funny videos about scammy audiophile gear 😂.
Oh also to make more people mad 😂 if you above 30 witch most people that cab effort audiophile gear are. Every year you age your gear becomes more ueless so to loss in frequentie, technically kids hear most detail by far actually. So dads give your gear to your 8 year old who actually hears all the difference ☠️.
Can I make the argument that you really wouldn't hear movement in an orchestra because they're mic'd that way. If you sat front and center at an orchestra and this soloist played right in front of you, you would hear him moving around.
Music is art and recording it gives you a medium to hear the music in ways that are otherwise impractical or impossible. The movement is part of the artists performance, so why not capture that?
audio enjoyers: I use your equipment to enjoy the music of others.
"audiophiles": I use your music to enjoy my equipment.
ok... For the previous video and the music sequence, with a cellphone headphone attached to an ordinary laptop I captured that the clarinet was moving all the time. But I didn't think that it was a fault; instead I thought that with the dispersion of the clarinet sound the artist tried to create a much more cheerful atmosphere, as the sound moved all around like a butterfly.
cry me a river
The problem is that the GRAN majority of the sound engineers, and even more the audiophiles, unfortunately ARE NOT musicians (except maybe a lilttle bit of guitar or keyboards) ! So they dont listen to and dont understand the music itself (unlike a musician), but they hear and listen to the sound equipment... (something without sense for a real musician...).
I suggest to all the audiophiles and sound engineers to start studying music seriously and becoming REAL musicians instead...
I'm not an expert or anything but... From my perspective, if you wanted the most pure replication of a concert hall experience, you could just put an expensive binural mic in the location where people would normally sit. I'd bet the recording would be a cool gimmick for a while but no one would prefer that over what we currently do. I believe that the goal with using many mics to record each individual instrument is to allow someone to master it afterwards and produce a more well rounded balanced song. I really enjoy music that allows instruments to move locations within a 3D soundspace. They make me want to move with the music and make me feel more immersed. The slight movements of the clarinet in this piece makes me feel the same way. At the end of the day, it's all in the eyes of the producer.
There's a perfect video example of what I'd call one of the most immersive musical audios that uses movement. Doubt anyone will read this comment but if ya wanna check it out, it's called: 3D Sound - Binural Recording of a Musical Performance on youtube.
I made it all the way through the first video. Only made it half way on this one. It's all so tiresome and petty. Good luck.
Thank you for the follow up. I just found your channel, so I missed the party, but I am definitely one of those who agreed with you that the original recording is flawed.
I'm not an audiophile, never claimed to be, but I do have a strong background in live pro audio...and that kind of movement from a static sound source simply isn't heard when sitting in the audience.
A live recording should give me the experience of being there as it was recorded, as closely as possible anyways.
As a not-particularly-skilled sax player in a blues band, my hearing ability is vastly better than my playing. This said, while I really appreciate a masterful studio recording, I prefer a less than perfect live performance recording with all of its flaws. For my sensibilities, the live performance is often more emotive and spontaneous. For the live audience, it's more than the notes being played (and recorded), it's the whole vibe picked up from the stage and the audience. Obviously, someone holding up their iPhone and recording the show doesn't cut it. A well-engineered recording of the live performance does. I've recorded in a studio a few times and while the final product is amazing, it's considerably more stifled than being on stage and recording. Being isolated in a recording booth, making sure you maintain the optimum distance from the mic, and not get the body language cues from your band mates and audience, doesn't do much for spontaneity and passion or the performance. Thanks for the video.
Your initial axiom is not specific enough - The concert hall experience (for a listener at point X in the hall) should be replicated. With the Weber clarinet piece, I felt that the orchestra were spread out neatly at a small distance from me, but the soloist was much closer. I imagine this is what the conductor would experience (I liked this effect).
The other "correct" pieces gave an impression of the whole orchestra spread as before, but with soloist at a fixed point amongst them, all at a distance from the listener, who must have been seated some rows further back in the hall. Coming straight from the Weber performance, this felt flatter and less animated to me.
So, where is the correct place in the concert hall to sit? I don't go to classical concerts often, and last time I was at London's Festival Hall I sat 3 levels up at the very front end of the row of boxes, almost over the stage. A very odd place that I would not have chosen, but not unpleasant as a listener.
Youtube audio quality.
You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
Disclaimer: I don't listen to classical music so my experience with live recordings and even studio albums probably gives me a bias toward a different style of production (if that makes sense). I think it's interesting that your standard is the realism of the experience when I'm looking for an abstract experience. Even with concert recordings, I'm not imagining the performance or feeling like I'm there. I'm either physically feeling the music or having abstract daydreams play out. I appreciate you sharing your perspective because it never even occurred to me that people would imagine they're at a show despite that making perfect sense. It definitely helps me understand the negative reactions people will have to live recordings or even the performance if they are attending it. For instance, many folks want the music to sound just like the album version. Or at least as close as possible. Anyway, liking and subscribing!
I heard the clarinet problem. I also heard the over-compressed sound quality and lack of depth in the ambience...
Doesn't seem like 80% panning to me (headphones). I was paying equal attention to the other instruments
You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
My axiom is that musicians know how microphones work. If the soloist moved between the two microphones, then that was their intention. I'd say most artists have intentions we dislike so we only listen to the handful of artists we do like
Musicians who are wearing headphones do know how microphones work because they can hear it. Otherwise, they either guess or just leave it to the engineer. You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
I think the main issue here is you are thinking of classical music recording, which is correct, but many people who have listen to "data made music" on the disco, have no problem withe the sound not being natural in one spot in the stereo image. some times music is made with this as an effect. who hasn´t heard the drums moving from left channel to the right channel. No one belive the drum set was fling from left to right, but it is a special effect you only can get via a stereo setup. therfor I think that you are correct when you say classical music recording, but a recording and mixing for the enjoyment can easily have the "instruments" flying between the channels. Now that atoms recording is being more popular, we will some times hear the music from all over the room. for me some of the atmos mixes sounds very strange, but som love to have this strange effect that isen´t possible to achieve from live music performance.
to each their own can be translated to french by the expression "les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas". It maybe exists word for word in english but english isn't my birth language so idk
In English we say "De gustibus non est disputandum"
@@AudioMasterclass i feel like this is not english but i will trust you on this.
Mea Culpa : You Spotted me ..I was the One Cycling with One earbuds In ...Will Give your Work on this It's Due Consideration and Set up the Bang.and Olefsen Active Beo Speakers when I get Home 🖖👍🪐⚜️🔱
Ok im genuinly curious what spesifically you were listening to this on if you hear the clarinet moving 80% into each side. I have now tried 4 different headphones and 2 different set of speakers. Ive even tried listening to it with from a single headphone cup, and sitting down next to one of the speakers and 80% of the clarinet either moving into or out of one side is just not happening no matter what I do. The only time it was even remotely that obvious was when I turned on software surround which makes everything sound horrible and never gets used.
Im not saying you dont hear that, but whatever you did I cannot recreate it. There is objectively no 80% shift of the clarinet to either side happening on any of my setups. There is some movement, but its barely noticable.
If you don't hear this on headphones then perhaps it's your hearing that's the issue. How the brain interprets what the ear sends it is subjective and it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that some people are more sensitive to imaging, some less. If you go back to my first video on this topic, the vectorscope shots might help you pin down the issue. You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
With the comparison of the second recording, I hear it now more distinctly than before. I hear what you mean and I'm starting to agree with you. There's a warble there that lends the solo more of a wacky inflatable tube man feel, than the prancing along in a forest feel that was the intention of the piece.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
I don't want to get into higres world but I just did and My first experience made me throw all Bluetooth earpiece garbage in trash can. and this experience came with only a beginner amplifier pack. I can't imagine What's even beyond that point. I'm scared.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
the ai chick is weird af
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
Great follow-up!
This isn't really an "audiophile' issue though. It's a recording and sound engineering issue if it is one at all, and I don't think it is.
Also, those Atomos tracks exist. Though they are a bit less random about jumping around than is implied here. They deliberately use positional sound to create an intentional effect to place music around the listener.
Sometimes what you're going for with a recording is something you can't get from a live performance. The entire point is to do that.
Other times you're trying to get as close to a live performance as possible.
It is a preference thing, but it's also art, so sometimes playing around with the medium is the point.
Artists have been messing with this since stereo existed, Stix did this with high fi stereo with the "Kilroy Was Here" album back in the 80s for example.
Led Zeppelin also messed around with it with stereo drum recording on a few of their albums to create something you couldn't really get from a concert performance.
Not every recording is trying to recreate a live performance. As anyone else, I can appreciate the art and understand the intent without liking it. I can dislike something and still say that there isn't something "wrong" with it.
I think this is the case here. There isn't anything wrong with the recording, even though I'd prefer a different and more stable mix for it.
I don't disagree with you that this is not my preference for a recording of this nature, but I do see the value in doing things you can't otherwise for the sake of art by taking advantage of the unique qualities of the particular medium being used as well.
Why the hate? seroulsy why the hate for people who enjory the hobby of high fi or people who hear and enjory mucis different they you?
Dunno where you're getting this from. Tell me the most hateful thing I said in this video - No, my entire channel.
i notice it and it kinds of irritate me i am confused of where the cello is
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
I'll add myself to the like brigade, the liking of the spatial wandering of the clarinet. It helps me visualise the performer's movement which I instantly recognise through my cabinets' spatial properties. I also dislike the reverberations on the second clip, it was surprisingly noticeable and your explanation nails what I'm hearing, for my system it confuses the sound stage and spatial presence. Hang on that's too audiophile, it's a messy sound in comparison to the pin sharp clarinet in the first recording, that's better.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@@AudioMasterclass have you given some extra work to the 'bot', auto responding with links to keep up the eyeballs? However, the 'bot' has won, I'll add them to my watch later 👌
@@AudioMasterclass ah ha, the response is bot driven, hence it's succinctness and lack of personalisation, the bot dished out these links to me last time, shame!
Paraphrasing the immortal words of Elvis Presley, you have a suspicious mind. I get many comments daily on the videos in this 3-part series. In nearly all cases the commenter's issue is already answered in the videos they haven't watched yet so I have cut-and-paste standard answers with links. As for the bot, that's me.
I assume it's not a thing that's done, but to get the experience you have from being in the audience, how would a recording from where the audience would be sound? I guess it wouldn't be possible to get a good sound when the audience is there while the recording is happening.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
My clarinet tutor moved more expansively than Hendrikx. And I sat next to her every week for an hour.
Your argument is putting a Platonic ideal of 4D live experience etched into a 2D media surface.
If you played clarinet (and I've played Weber's Concertino at 14), you'd play like a cartoon frog was dancing in your imagination too.
So if you wanted to get your prized experience of this performance, it'd have to be done through either 1.) Artificial intelligence generated home audio systemor 2.) Your grand-niece performing the Weber piece after every evening supper.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
I listened to it on my hi fi stereo in my home. Big difference from my car. I had to put the speakers really close and angle them in. This recording sounds great to my ears. I do not consider myself to be an audiophile but I do like to listen to music on a good stereo system. The movement of the artists is not quite noticeable to me but you can hear it if you listen closely. I’ve played records that seemed to place instruments on a stage in front of me. It’s like I can tell where the drummer is sitting and where the bass guitar is sitting as if they are on stage in front of me. I get this from a vintage stereo system.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
You had me, then you lost me. I disagree with the axiom as much as I dislike its awful presentation.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28 [Edit: correct links]
I think everyone heard the "problem" if they had stereo image presented they may have killed their own enjoyment of the music if they were overwhelmed by the movement in the solo instrument which is something an audiophile would count as part of the artistry intended by the recording engineer
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
0 dBm is one milliwatt. Voltage, ohms, current and stuff follow from that. 3 dB is, as you say, a doubling or halving of power. 6 dB is a doubling of voltage and a quadrupling of power. EDIT: I think I answered someone else's question there. Never mind, it's all fun.
A bit hard to notice for myself, but what I did notice was that the instrument made a greater appearance on the left side of the headphone and some on the right and occasionally fluttered around.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
The thought of a solo instrument's sound coming from different positions at times and points where that sound is actually embellished by the apparent proximity to another complementary sound is interesting and adds another layer of experience. A gifted mixer could do wonderful things.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
I'm reminded of the way that the rise of stereo recordings in the sixties created (along with, of course, the vogue for "psychedelia") a tendency to move instruments about the stereo image quite wildly, guitar solos careening from speaker to speaker, and so on.
By the early seventies, recording engineers had calmed down some.
Nevertheless, popular music since the sixties rarely attempts to reproduce anything remotely like a "concert" experience. Even live recordings (the ones that are actually and entirely live) reproduce, of course, what's played with tons of amplification and effects.
It's possible to record an orchestra in the way one might record a rock band...and certainly, an interesting experiment to do so (although probably not with Bach and such).
So I'd say your axiom works only for music which does attempt to reproduce the concert hall experience. Obviously, if music is entirely studio-bound (such as the Beatles post-'66), there's no "concert hall experience" to speak of...and if we want to have a tiny little harpsichord overmatch an entire brass section, well then that's just fine.
But I do not think most classical music listeners want that kind of recording!
I would assume then a recording such as this: https://youtu.be/37kaymgFkUI?si=n_nwCggEZzjUAU7Q
In which Widmann is conducting whilst playing the solo would not fall into your idea of a good recording. Especially the 2nd movement where he makes several long sweeps across the microphone array. In my mind, his movement conveys the energy of the performance and the double duties he is performing whereas a more static position, recording wise, would take away from the reality of the performance. Would this not then go against your original axiom of reproducing the concert hall experience?
The concert hall experience is a benchmark because this is how the music was expected to be heard when it was written. As a concert-goer I don't hear anywhere near as much movement as in your example. I see three spaced boundary microphones on the stage. This is bound to exaggerate the movement of the clarinet way beyond what the audience hears. Either the producer and engineer wanted this exaggeration, or they tolerated it as a compromise for other aspects of the sound texture. You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28 [edited for correct links]
Hope this guy doesn't live in Scotland...
From the 1st of April, what he said here is a hate crime with multiple victims.
A mass hate criminal. A genocidal hater?
Opinions are nolonger acceptable.
"I wanted to hear it but ... I wasn't so sure I could" so it's not a mistake that you can hear the movement then? It's a choice and one you actually wanted to hear in person but didn't? I am kind of kidding because I think I know what you're getting at but that was too easy.
I wasn't sure what you were asking. I heard distortion in the strings which means input levels were too high. I also noticed a Lack of low end meaning a bad mix of volumes overall. The engineers weren't good. Compression won't fix pinning meters on strings. Then again I was listening on my phone. I can hear the bouncing clarinet though.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
it sounds like a doppler shift "spinning point source" post recording dynamic amplitude effect.
Also, what do we think of Giles Martin's new stereo mixes of Beatles albums? Any highlights or grievances?
nm u been did dat
Please make a Best Recordings of All Time List of albums for audio-enthusiasts!
My most concern is the Turntable Setup!
*1985 JVC Quartz Locked Fully Automatic Turntable QL-Y66F / Ortofon Black Cartridge 1.5 Tracking Force * 1984 JVC A-X900 Stereo Integrated Amplifier / Klipsch RB 5 Speakers
It takes me at least 20 to 35 minutes aligning the Cartridge I want everything be set-up precisely
Install the Cartridge. ...
Align the Cartridge. ...
Adjust the Vertical Tracking Angle. ...
Set the Tracking Force. ...
Set the Anti-Skating Force ...
Set the Q Damping .....
Make Sure the Turntable Is Level. ...
Tone Arm must be leveled and balanced at 0
The Speakers are good as your System
Time To Kick Back And Listen To My Records,Albums,Yes Vinyl :) ONLY! I Do Not Listen To To REMASTER Records they are Digital Remaster :(
Seems like you're having good old-fashioned audiophile fun.
David, i disagree to some level. I heard alot of chamber concerts, preferrably sitting in the first row. Yes, its my personal taste. But sitting in front of the (yes, smaller) orchestra i'm far more involved or immersed into that thing. And then i clearly hear any movement. Any. My brother (for instance) plays classical trumpet. And with a small baroque orchestration with three or four instruments beside of an smaller organ or positiv there is so few room for feet, instrument rests and music stands, that you can hear the instruments descent and emerge behind their music stands even. 😄 (The latter isn't what i really want to hear in a well engineered recording, anyways. There are definitely borders, even for me. And yes. The movement should be narrowed a bit or more. And slightly even a bit further.) 😙
You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
Live music is about a live experience. Recorded music is about an enhanced experience. It will always loose elements of the live music experience, but at the same time can add a level of closeness and intimacy with an artist that a typical venue live experience will lack.
The recording/mix and mastering engineers job is to deliver the intended and hopefully most enjoyable listening experience. The purpose of your listening system is not perfection, but greatest enjoyment - often the two go hand in hand to a greater or lesser extent, but each system makes compromises - it is up to you to choose the compromises you can live with and choose the areas where you desire the best possible. The music and the sonic experience you like will likely guide this.
I think the production team on the original recording did the right thing. They appear to accept and embrace the idea that it is a recording and not live and chose to deliver an enhanced experience that places you unnaturally close to a soloist giving you a level of access and intimacy with the artist you would never really get otherwise. To be fair, this is quite normal in many orchestral recordings. There is a balance to get it right. We as listeners do not have to agree or accept the production choices made. We choose the recordings we like the most for whatever personal reasons.
Your video was never about poor production. It was always about your personal choices vs other people personal choices and that is why we all choose different music, different artists, different systems etc.
You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
There is an immense amount to learn…
What a pleasure to be learning from an expert.. who loves the music…, I now figure I am a gear nut.., but I do love the music , the skills…🙏🙏🙏🙏
You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
I love learning about the context of what I can/ can’t likely hear.. what the gear is doing…
I commented, at length, on the last video, albeit after this follow-up video was published. Our Oxfordshire audiophile seems to hate the stereo imaging of instruments. I can agree up unto a point. Until a few decades ago, it was customary to mic an instrumentalist in mono to avoid this near-field stereo misalignment, which forces the audiophile to hear a ridiculously-close solo performance, as if the listener were not on the 2nd row (cheapskate!) but sitting on the floor in front of the performer, cross-legged, like a spoiled child. Or at least from the conductor's POV!
But we are modern listeners here. We know how micing works. We know what we are hearing. You see a lot of articles talking of the "intimacy" of recordings now. That's essentially a bunch of drivel, I know. But the reality of mimicking concert halls, whether in the reverb machine or in the mic placement or the stereo mix, is such that an audiophile can actually adapt, re-interpret, and do the mental processing necessary to transform the music to a pleasant sound if all of the elements are there.
So the answer to the stated question is pedantic, boring, and mundane. "Yep." We hear it. You seem to be asking whether the recording sounds like a 2nd-row listener would hear it. I mean, no offense, duh. I mean, duh. We hear what was recorded. As a sound engineer amateur, I hear what sounds like something that could be tweaked somewhat. Or if the goal is to sound like a 2nd rower, I could make a major issue out of this recording and go off all half-cocked and forcefully spew expletives at the sound engineer for NOT making it sound like a 2nd rower would hear it. But we all know that it wasn't recorded or mixed for that. It was mixed, miced, and recorded to be "intimate" and animated and lively. It's more like the 2nd row of the orchestra, sitting in front of the soloist and playing the violin or something.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@@AudioMasterclassOk, but do you agree?
@@AllAmericanGuyExpert My agreement or disagreement, and to what degree, can be found in my videos.
@@AudioMasterclassWell, I think you learned a thing ... or two. I was not your only teacher from the looks of the comment stream. I like making money, and I like learning. Which do you like better?
I have so much debt to repay to you, both in learning and earning. I knew nothing from my 40+ years in pro audio until you brought it all into crystal clarity.@@AllAmericanGuyExpert
The only 'problem' is your slightly swollen ego 😑
I don't know where you get 'slightly' from.
lol, i fear you've missed the artist's intention completely, although your commitment to the wilful ignorance bit is commendable 😂
the prima donna is the lead in an opera, who may be moving around stage during their performance, and is also used derogatorily to refer to someone who thinks they are the lead when they are not, which can also be interpreted to imply a certain degree of frenetic action, and it appears that the intention behind the performance was to really emphasize the way the clarinetist moves as they play, perhaps intending to capture not what the instrument actually sounds like to the audience, but instead, how the musician intuits it ought to sound as they move around, but ultimately, the only way to really know any of this would simply be to interview the musician who made the piece to ask him, presuming he is contemporary.
In opera recording where there may be an actual prima donna, they may walk around the stage, or what represents the stage, to imitate a live performance. In this case, the player is not walking, he is moving his instrument. There is video of the recording that demonstrates this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this movement being captured, although in a recording it can be distracting because you can't link what you hear with what you see, because there's nothing to see. In this recording however, the stereo image is almost as wide as the distance between the speakers and in addition to the side to side swaying movement, individual notes pop out at random directions. This is not at all realistic as I pointed out in my video. However, if this is something the market for the recording likes, then there may be profit in it and it is difficult to argue against that. It isn't realistic though - nothing like you would hear in a concert. I'm a concert goes so I know that precisely. How's that for my wilful ignorance?
@@AudioMasterclass lmao, stupendous! You’re doing a lovely job of completely ignoring the artist’s intention behind the work, and it’s hilarious to watch/read! 🤣👍
I'm pleased you find this amusing. If the artist had demanded 'Make my clarinet dance like a demented frog with a substance abuse problem' then yes, their intention has been captured perfectly.
I don't disagree with this perspective despite not considering it completely wrong to have the sound swaying from side to side. In my head Id like to imagine I am as close to the soloist as posible, and I believe that is why having a wide soundstage that makes you feel like you are surrounded by the orchestra to be very moving (literally hehe)
If the engineer want us to focus on the notes coming out of the instrument. he would have used an "in-instrument mic". What I think Audiophiles like this recording is because it capture the movement of the person playing the instrument. It is NOT static, and they consider it a good thing. Technically speaking if we are to capture a "dancing performer" of an instrument we have 2x option. 1. He/She do not dance and play as static as possible. 2. The Mic dance with it, you place the microphone in the instrument, on from of their amplifier, you try to control the gain to compensate for the "movement". Now on a recording we do not want that, we want to heard the movement of the musician, it is called the human factor.
An argument can be made, no doubt, that creating a recording can be a part of performative expression itself, including additional effects, whether intended or not.
A lot of unique and cherished sound styles from the vinyl era exist only due to bad recording equipment and techniques.
For example, recording jazz using modern equipment ends up sounding nothing like "classic jazz" from black-and-white cinema, so people often use special filters and tricks to make it sound "properly".
Spot mics have their place, but definitely not to reproduce a 'live' experience. During lockdown orchestral recordings were transmitted with each section individually mic'ed. I loved that sound - it gave a composer's ear view of the music. Full detail of all the notes and their interrelation. Wonderful, not a 'live' reproduction of being there with just two ears, a totally different thing.
The most important thing though is for people to play and enjoy music in whatever way they can.
Ha! Second row promenader ! Pa ! I'm a front row stander :-) As I said ( twice ) a real recording is a stereo pair - no spot mics at all - really close to the back of the conductor.
The curse of a mixing desk has plagued me all my life. I once was allowed in to the sound recording and mixing room at the Royal Albert Hall, while Sir Adrian Bolt was rehearsing 'The Planets'. The audio mic master - the human at the desk, first let me hear a stereo pair set at my perfect position. It was wonderful ! Perfectly reproducing what I actually used to hear standing front row and as close to center as I could get ( by queueing all day - not pushing in ). But then... he started adding spot mics, it got worse and worse - artificial dreadfulness, pulling my ears apart all over the sound stage. The killer blow was dealt when he added what he called 'atmos ' - mics at the back of the hall ! What was he trying to do - kill the sound entirely? It ended up sounding as if I was in the stalls with a tube pointing at the leader of each orchestral section. I may have cried. A hateful experience. The sound chap was really proud of his work though, as was the BBC presumably. Nothing beats attending in real life. Ambisonics get close though.
Allegro / Vivace - Mmmm yeah this is A Frog Jumping around but I blame the Sound Engineer for not Softening the Playing especially as it was being Paired/ Juxtaposed with the Oboe Always a Tad more Menacing than the Demented Frenetic Sound from the Clarinet done to a Crisp.in the High Register ⚖️😵💫👍🔩🫣🔱
The Hammond Organ is my thing and the inventor, Laurens Hammond, hated the use of the Leslie Speaker with his wonderful instrument. He thought it should be pure and unadulterated and did not get on with Don Leslie and his spinning device "ruining" the sound of the Hammond. So, as you must know, when they are put together the sound is magnificent, theatrical and thrilling. Innovation is key to producing new and unusual sounds to enhance our musical experience and it is the same with the orchestra and all forms of music. You do not need an axiom, just your ears and your appreciation.
A fun link for comment readers - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jSH73-4gMs&ab_channel=hans1970
What I find funny is how many audiophiles claim to be sound experts and claim to be able to hear a pin drop at 100 ft but are tone deft (and yes I've known a number of them) . 🤣🤣
Ah yes, the nausea inducing AI sockpuppet you've set up to disengenously push the opinions you wish those who disagree with you held, termed exactly as you'd like them for convinience really drives your point home and doesn't detract from the video at all.
You are worse than the most stereotypical of the Audiophiles insisting your subjective response to something has greater merit than anyone elses exactly as they do.
Funny that if you make up your own axioms and set your own goals for a recording you had nothing to do with, a subjective quality you disagree with can suddenly magically become a definite flaw by those standards.
And you can sit there, using AI products built on the theft of millions of peoples creative works to avoid the cost of making a visually interesting video while delivering nothing more than opinions.
If your course are similar in quality to your videos, definitely seems like something to avoid at all costs.
Thank you for your insights. If you would like to clarify further please feel free.
Comparing the sound movement of a clarinet and a violin is wrong in itself. Violins shoots quite large compared to the very focused sound coming from the clarinet's bell.
Of course both of them will sound much different when moving, violin being more subtle and the clarinet much more obivous. Have someone play the clarinet right in front of you and ask them to move around when they play and do the same with a violin player and maybe you'll catch what I'm saying. I don't think this is a mistake; it would mean the audio engineer can't even use PAN correctly or choose his mics correctly.
@2:42 Literally listening to this while sitting on my couch 12 feet from my speakers, in a room with bare plaster walls lol 😅
Over my head. If you're this picky it must be awful hard to just enjoy the music.
That Final Axiom you presented is precisely correct. (Which means you're also wrong lol)
Well done. Good video, great response.
I had my Kali Audio IN-8 pair about three feet behind me in a few feet apart, and I did notice this wandering Clarinet, but I couldn't put my finger on what to label it, until you said it, weird.
This is just a really weird gotcha lmfao
Audiophiles get to the extreme of course but going the opposite extreme to get them in a gotcha makes you just as out of touch.
Oh god trying to invoke math in a subjective debate. I should have realized this was just rage bait for views. You're welcome for the engagement though.
I understand where you're coming from regarding "to each their own", but there's nothing specified that a recording should be of concert hall experience is there. Art is art, and every artist's (sound director in this case) interpretation should be respected. I am sure as they have been doing recordings for forever that they know about the movement thing, so this is most likely them leaning to it as a artistic direction rather than it being a defect.
Edited: The first line in Evil Penguin Classic's YouTube channel's description even said "Yes, we record classical music, but not in any classic sense." and also "Most labels are out there to acquire a standard catalogue of (some type or era of) art music, but we focus on the persons behind the record. " so this is definitely a creative thing and I don't think you should call it a problem. If you dislike it, then that's fine - but it's not a problem if the artist doesn't think it is one.
not logitech... dem personal attack
I watched the first video in full. I can't watch this one in full. All I hear is pinnacle self-righteous "I'm right, you're wrong, even in a subjective context" arrogance dripping out of every word, and bringing in an AI-gen bot to read some shit off a wiki page just made it more insufferable. This whole thing is just rage-bait to me. Wanna nitpick spatial characteristics? How about let's put the screws to everyone completely neglecting the spatial engineering of video game audio.
Gear-nitpicking audiophiles spending more money on perfecting the electrical and acoustic properties of their listening setup than on the rest of their life combined are missing key points - in that we agree and are friends. But you are using an incredibly flawed example and the idea that this is all there is to being an audiophile, or that there is no other kind of audiophile who has the right to call themselves such, is disgusting and reeks of the same pointless, point-dodging, goalpost-dancing gatekeeping as Queer Twitter discourse nitpicking what it means to be "Lesbian".
You should probably calm down.
Although I enjoyed Roeland Hendrikx's performance very much, I agree that the recording is wrong and would not like to hear close stereo mikes used for soloists become a fad or trend.
For you, does the Hendrikx recording also make the soloist sound too large on the stero soundstage, like he's as wide as the orchestra?
Could multiple microphones be used to obtain a good mono mix of a moving performner, or would that introduce phase changes?
For the true concert hall experience, we would need two dozen speakers to blast against a wall and have the sound rebound on it to the listener.
Sooooooo......
Headphones, I still don't notice it, even after you point it out. Even did a left/right speaker test video on YouTube, no problem. Maybe I'm just a potato, but I still enjoyed the music :D
Don't worry that you're a potato. You might be a King Edward.
A clarinet that directs high frequencies to one side and low frequencies to the other would be a fascinating instrument.
@@AudioMasterclass Or just done with EQ. Seems likely an XY mic placement with a gentle high pass and low pass filters. There is plenty of overlap in the center frequencies, so the transition from left to right is smooth, but listening closely the left-right image is very frequency dependent. It is very consistent.
I recently got comfortable with my own 'audiophile' setup with a DAC, AMP and the new R70x Refine. I am sad to say I could not hear the wandering but on one lower note. Perhaps I'm spoiled by the over-stimulating electronic music I often listen to that takes the stereo profile from maximum left channel, to maximum right channel multiple times over in a matter of seconds.
There us nothing wrong with spends lots if money on audio equipment if you want the best
So it all comes down to taste. Even the hypothetical orchestral recording standard doesn’t exist. It depends on where you are sitting. 😂
When adding a zero or two to the price of gear only results in incremental improvements in sound quantity, then music ceases to be a part of the hobby. I like music too much to be an audiophile.
i could hear it, i am an audiophile, and i thought it was intentional to give the recording more playfulness.
The way that the clarinette is jumpig and paning throughout the clip is not tasteful to my ears. It makes it somewhat harder to enjoy the overall performance.
These so called audiophiles are just “showing off” people. I listen music every day. My equipment isn’t cheap, nor very expensive. Just the most important to me are the speakers. They aren’t bad or good ones. It’s abu what sound you like. The best speakers to me can be the worst speakers for someone ele and vice versa. There’s no need to spend an extravagant bunch of money to listen to music. And the most important is the music, not the gear. I have the money to buy very expensive gear but I don’t buy it. The sound I have is great, so why should I so called “upgrade” ? What’s great about audiofiles is that at least they make some people richer 🙂
As a 17 year old guy with 200€ HD560S I wouldn't consider myself an Audiophile, but still above the average. Music is really important for me and it drives the directions for my life. When I listen to Hi-Res music, it's not about having a perfect recording, a perfect balance between L and R and mixing. I take the music file I receive as perfect. If the recording is biased to the left I take that "AS IS" and see it like "Okay that's how it was supposed to be when it got recorded". I don't see it as an issue or a faulty recording.
However, I want to hear every detail in all of its clarity when I listen to music. That's why I've bought expensive headphones and when I am older even mroe expensive headphones. Because I can immediately tell the difference between my HD560S and all the "gaming headphones" for a similar price, that my friends have.
This is overthinking, nearing perfection. Now I know I'm not an audiophile.
Strictly speaking you shouldn't listen on headphones if you want the music to approximate a real live performance, because they tend to make it sound like the music is inside your head.
I think the issue with trying to replicate how it would sound in a concert hall is that there is no one definitive way to do that. Does the concert sound the same from everywhere in a hall? Do microphones and other recording equipment add their own alterations to the sound? This is why a recording should be considered its own unique experience.
OK, seeing as you've come back to this. In your original look at this, I said in my comment that I heard it but didn't think of it as a fault as such, actually I think I mentally put it down to room acoustics of the hall. But no, I've been thinking about it, it's the way the mics were arranged by someone who didn't know what he (or she) was doing that we were hearing.
I did ask why so many mics were used for the recording, you said they didn't use all of them, but I think they did use the two on stands close to the conductor pointing straight ahead toward the soloist and that they were panned left/right. Now why they would have done that is beyond me, but it explains what we're hearing. The soloist wouldn't have to move far at all to leap about the stereo images like, as you so eloquently put it, a demented frog with a substance abuse problem.
I really don't get that mic set-up at all. Why would you ever have two live mics mounted parallel, close together (but not co-incident), like that? And certainly you wouldn't pan them left/right, there will also be phase differences between the two mics which would do weird things to the sound stage if you did.
My way of recording a concert like this would have been essentially a crossed pair of mics - as coincident as possible - somewhere close to the conductor. Several such pairs at different distances from the orchestra might be an idea and maybe a few other mics just in case something needs a bit of re-enforcement. But those two at the front pointing straight ahead, no, that's just plain vanilla wrong.
As regards audiophiles though, they wouldn't be interested in this because they don't listen to the music, they listen to their equipment.
The highter noter are right channel
I don't think any other commenter has noticed this. Well spotted.
I should be a videophile because I can't stand every iteration of the music with the video of the "forest": besides that clipping due to the sunlight, there is that blue flat little line on the bottom of the screen that appears, for example, at 8:03 and keeps moving like a download animation till the end at 8:24. It should be a reflection in some original video that has been cropped or something worse. If you want to see it, you should see the video without the player controls, so go to 8:00, let it play and move out from the player so that controls will disappear.
If you didn't notice it that's fine, if you don't see it now please consult a very good ophthalmologist. Full screen is very nice, it seems like some VGA revival hidden animated glitter. 🙃
That ai girl scares the shit outta me ngl.
That's is personal style I accept but still wrong 💯
Exactly ,I found unbalanced volume and more.
All I can get from this, is a little bit of overlapping stereo. And a few noise grains.
Exactly. Comments in the other video were praising the movement, but in a concert you don't hear any movement because the soloist is sufficiently far way from you that the movement is irrelevant.
Love this guy, mentioned my old z5500 in his other video, now he says no logitechs allowed... (not an audiophile because of price) would love to though. Again, love your vids mr.
Wow. For a bloke that seems to have an issue with "audiophiles" you don't half get bogged down in what you think "should" be a "correct" recording of an orchestra. Be gone from my YouTube feed.
Oh dear. You don’t like it that I have opinions. You’re not going to like my channel so please stay away.
You’re right. We gotta make it as accurate to the experience of being in the music hall. That is why we should put mics in every single seat in the audience, and make as many tracks as there are seats so you can choose which seat you can “sit” in. And let’s include every single tiny sound by the audience. And finally, let’s include the waiting period before the concert. You know what that’s not enough. Let’s include the buying of the ticket, and the drive to the concert. Then maybe we can be closer to the classical concert experience that is correct
During BBC Proms season, I devote nine hours to each concert I attend. Can’t wait for next summer.
I'm getting an impression that the worst kind of an audiophile is the author of the video himself.
If I did aspire to become an audiophile then, yes, I'm sure I'd want to be the worst kind.
Wow this was majorly insightful! ( Brilliant) !!! This is why I keep coming back.
i heard it! 230usd iems... i thought i would be wrong but it was right the stereo imaging!!
The "axiom" that classical music 'is' or 'should be' as close to the 'concert hall experience' as possible is naive and wrong. There are countless techniques on great classical records where this 'axiom' is intentionally broken by engineers et al.
However it would be correct to say "SOME recording engineers attempt to trick the listener to thinking the are getting the as close to the concert hall experience as possible - while attempting to hide many compromises." Many others don't.
Even if that "axiom" was true, the most obvious issue breaking that rule is the obviously distorted clarinet. Unless you're attempting to say the clarinet was playing through a valve amp in the "concert hall experience".
If you're going to be polemic, at least get it right.
An axiom is a fundamental assumption or starting point that we accept as true without proof and it forms the foundation of a logical system. So I based my argument on an axiom that I explicitly stated that I made up myself, also saying that I could have started from a different axiom. If you're going to be difficult, at least try to take in and understand what I said.
I have an interesting perspective on this. I have used cheap earbuds, very high quality headphones, and a budget mid range JBL headset. While the cheap earbuds cannot pick up on this defect, the budget JBL's pick it up easily. This would not be the case for any budget headphones just ten years ago. What this means, is that the performance floor for average or budget headphones has risen dramatically. The defect is easily heard on my 30$ JBL headset. Headsets often have slightly compromised audio compared to their headphone counterparts. But now, between my JBL and my expensive and high end [entry-level high end/ -200$ range] headphones from Audiotechnica, this defect is not any more difficult to make out in the JBL's. The ATH-60X technically sounds better, but the fact that track separation and sound discernment have come so close to this in my budget headset, not even a dedicated headphones but a headset of all things, is nothing short of incredible. It is so exciting to see the performance floor rise so rapidly. Budget headphones from just 10 years ago would not come close to where they are today. We are quickly approaching a future where the performance delta between budget and entry high end headphones will be shrunk to the point many will not even perceive the difference. Audiophiles will of course hear the difference, but the perceived difference is shrinking and it is an exciting phenomena to witness. Great videos!
What you seem to think of as an issue isnt an issue at all and is just the quirk of the recording.
Audio doesnt have to replicate the music hall experience. If you want the music hall experience, then go to a music hall.
As someone that has quite decent hearing but would never call himself a audiophile, i have some high quality reference audio stuff for editing and tried quite alot gear thats out there. I find it funny that people use reference high quality studio headphones and say they do it hecause it sounds good not because there pretentious
You really think someone that records/mixed something doesn't know how most consumer audio gear is tuned ? Reference audio gear sounds funny enough incredibly flat and not really ,,fun" i bit higher treble and base mainly makes music more energetic and fun to listen to if not overdone.
Even tho i have high quality stuff i woule never go for a walk with something like that i use my sonyxm5 headphones via bluetooth 😂. There comfortable convenient and sound incredibly fun and have great noice cancelling.
People cry about compress from Bluetooth and swar by vinyl meanwhile yes its analog audio and isnt compressed. There clear physical limitations specially with very high and very deep tones do to the movement of the needle witch cause more loss of detail then modern high quality Bluetooth codecs. Yes Vinyl have a special kinda sound and feel to them, but its at a high pirce that being degradation over time, and even faster degradation while listening.
Meaning only way to experience the music as it was ,,intended" on a vinyl is when its brand new/first few times of listening.
If you think you can hear the difference between high Bitrate streaming and vlac (and that is indeed a noticable one for some people) do that. Oh and everything marketing itself as ,,for audiophiles" is a scam. Electroboom and linus tech tips made quite a funny videos about scammy audiophile gear 😂.
Oh also to make more people mad 😂 if you above 30 witch most people that cab effort audiophile gear are. Every year you age your gear becomes more ueless so to loss in frequentie, technically kids hear most detail by far actually. So dads give your gear to your 8 year old who actually hears all the difference ☠️.
Can I make the argument that you really wouldn't hear movement in an orchestra because they're mic'd that way. If you sat front and center at an orchestra and this soloist played right in front of you, you would hear him moving around.
Music is art and recording it gives you a medium to hear the music in ways that are otherwise impractical or impossible. The movement is part of the artists performance, so why not capture that?
audio enjoyers: I use your equipment to enjoy the music of others.
"audiophiles": I use your music to enjoy my equipment.
ok... For the previous video and the music sequence, with a cellphone headphone attached to an ordinary laptop I captured that the clarinet was moving all the time. But I didn't think that it was a fault; instead I thought that with the dispersion of the clarinet sound the artist tried to create a much more cheerful atmosphere, as the sound moved all around like a butterfly.
cry me a river
The problem is that the GRAN majority of the sound engineers, and even more the audiophiles, unfortunately ARE NOT musicians (except maybe a lilttle bit of guitar or keyboards) ! So they dont listen to and dont understand the music itself (unlike a musician), but they hear and listen to the sound equipment... (something without sense for a real musician...).
I suggest to all the audiophiles and sound engineers to start studying music seriously and becoming REAL musicians instead...
I'm not an expert or anything but... From my perspective, if you wanted the most pure replication of a concert hall experience, you could just put an expensive binural mic in the location where people would normally sit. I'd bet the recording would be a cool gimmick for a while but no one would prefer that over what we currently do. I believe that the goal with using many mics to record each individual instrument is to allow someone to master it afterwards and produce a more well rounded balanced song. I really enjoy music that allows instruments to move locations within a 3D soundspace. They make me want to move with the music and make me feel more immersed. The slight movements of the clarinet in this piece makes me feel the same way. At the end of the day, it's all in the eyes of the producer.
There's a perfect video example of what I'd call one of the most immersive musical audios that uses movement. Doubt anyone will read this comment but if ya wanna check it out, it's called: 3D Sound - Binural Recording of a Musical Performance on youtube.
I made it all the way through the first video. Only made it half way on this one. It's all so tiresome and petty. Good luck.
Thank you for the follow up. I just found your channel, so I missed the party, but I am definitely one of those who agreed with you that the original recording is flawed.
I'm not an audiophile, never claimed to be, but I do have a strong background in live pro audio...and that kind of movement from a static sound source simply isn't heard when sitting in the audience.
A live recording should give me the experience of being there as it was recorded, as closely as possible anyways.
As a not-particularly-skilled sax player in a blues band, my hearing ability is vastly better than my playing. This said, while I really appreciate a masterful studio recording, I prefer a less than perfect live performance recording with all of its flaws. For my sensibilities, the live performance is often more emotive and spontaneous. For the live audience, it's more than the notes being played (and recorded), it's the whole vibe picked up from the stage and the audience. Obviously, someone holding up their iPhone and recording the show doesn't cut it. A well-engineered recording of the live performance does. I've recorded in a studio a few times and while the final product is amazing, it's considerably more stifled than being on stage and recording. Being isolated in a recording booth, making sure you maintain the optimum distance from the mic, and not get the body language cues from your band mates and audience, doesn't do much for spontaneity and passion or the performance. Thanks for the video.
Your initial axiom is not specific enough - The concert hall experience (for a listener at point X in the hall) should be replicated. With the Weber clarinet piece, I felt that the orchestra were spread out neatly at a small distance from me, but the soloist was much closer. I imagine this is what the conductor would experience (I liked this effect).
The other "correct" pieces gave an impression of the whole orchestra spread as before, but with soloist at a fixed point amongst them, all at a distance from the listener, who must have been seated some rows further back in the hall. Coming straight from the Weber performance, this felt flatter and less animated to me.
So, where is the correct place in the concert hall to sit? I don't go to classical concerts often, and last time I was at London's Festival Hall I sat 3 levels up at the very front end of the row of boxes, almost over the stage. A very odd place that I would not have chosen, but not unpleasant as a listener.
Youtube audio quality.
You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
Disclaimer: I don't listen to classical music so my experience with live recordings and even studio albums probably gives me a bias toward a different style of production (if that makes sense). I think it's interesting that your standard is the realism of the experience when I'm looking for an abstract experience. Even with concert recordings, I'm not imagining the performance or feeling like I'm there. I'm either physically feeling the music or having abstract daydreams play out. I appreciate you sharing your perspective because it never even occurred to me that people would imagine they're at a show despite that making perfect sense. It definitely helps me understand the negative reactions people will have to live recordings or even the performance if they are attending it. For instance, many folks want the music to sound just like the album version. Or at least as close as possible. Anyway, liking and subscribing!
I heard the clarinet problem. I also heard the over-compressed sound quality and lack of depth in the ambience...
Doesn't seem like 80% panning to me (headphones). I was paying equal attention to the other instruments
You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
My axiom is that musicians know how microphones work. If the soloist moved between the two microphones, then that was their intention. I'd say most artists have intentions we dislike so we only listen to the handful of artists we do like
Musicians who are wearing headphones do know how microphones work because they can hear it. Otherwise, they either guess or just leave it to the engineer. You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
I think the main issue here is you are thinking of classical music recording, which is correct, but many people who have listen to "data made music" on the disco, have no problem withe the sound not being natural in one spot in the stereo image. some times music is made with this as an effect. who hasn´t heard the drums moving from left channel to the right channel. No one belive the drum set was fling from left to right, but it is a special effect you only can get via a stereo setup. therfor I think that you are correct when you say classical music recording, but a recording and mixing for the enjoyment can easily have the "instruments" flying between the channels. Now that atoms recording is being more popular, we will some times hear the music from all over the room. for me some of the atmos mixes sounds very strange, but som love to have this strange effect that isen´t possible to achieve from live music performance.
to each their own can be translated to french by the expression "les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas". It maybe exists word for word in english but english isn't my birth language so idk
In English we say "De gustibus non est disputandum"
@@AudioMasterclass i feel like this is not english but i will trust you on this.
Mea Culpa : You Spotted me ..I was the One Cycling with One earbuds In ...Will Give your Work on this It's Due Consideration and Set up the Bang.and Olefsen Active Beo Speakers when I get Home 🖖👍🪐⚜️🔱
Ok im genuinly curious what spesifically you were listening to this on if you hear the clarinet moving 80% into each side. I have now tried 4 different headphones and 2 different set of speakers. Ive even tried listening to it with from a single headphone cup, and sitting down next to one of the speakers and 80% of the clarinet either moving into or out of one side is just not happening no matter what I do. The only time it was even remotely that obvious was when I turned on software surround which makes everything sound horrible and never gets used.
Im not saying you dont hear that, but whatever you did I cannot recreate it. There is objectively no 80% shift of the clarinet to either side happening on any of my setups. There is some movement, but its barely noticable.
If you don't hear this on headphones then perhaps it's your hearing that's the issue. How the brain interprets what the ear sends it is subjective and it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that some people are more sensitive to imaging, some less. If you go back to my first video on this topic, the vectorscope shots might help you pin down the issue. You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
With the comparison of the second recording, I hear it now more distinctly than before. I hear what you mean and I'm starting to agree with you. There's a warble there that lends the solo more of a wacky inflatable tube man feel, than the prancing along in a forest feel that was the intention of the piece.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
I don't want to get into higres world but I just did and My first experience made me throw all Bluetooth earpiece garbage in trash can. and this experience came with only a beginner amplifier pack. I can't imagine What's even beyond that point. I'm scared.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
the ai chick is weird af
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
Great follow-up!
This isn't really an "audiophile' issue though. It's a recording and sound engineering issue if it is one at all, and I don't think it is.
Also, those Atomos tracks exist. Though they are a bit less random about jumping around than is implied here. They deliberately use positional sound to create an intentional effect to place music around the listener.
Sometimes what you're going for with a recording is something you can't get from a live performance. The entire point is to do that.
Other times you're trying to get as close to a live performance as possible.
It is a preference thing, but it's also art, so sometimes playing around with the medium is the point.
Artists have been messing with this since stereo existed, Stix did this with high fi stereo with the "Kilroy Was Here" album back in the 80s for example.
Led Zeppelin also messed around with it with stereo drum recording on a few of their albums to create something you couldn't really get from a concert performance.
Not every recording is trying to recreate a live performance. As anyone else, I can appreciate the art and understand the intent without liking it. I can dislike something and still say that there isn't something "wrong" with it.
I think this is the case here. There isn't anything wrong with the recording, even though I'd prefer a different and more stable mix for it.
I don't disagree with you that this is not my preference for a recording of this nature, but I do see the value in doing things you can't otherwise for the sake of art by taking advantage of the unique qualities of the particular medium being used as well.
Why the hate? seroulsy why the hate for people who enjory the hobby of high fi or people who hear and enjory mucis different they you?
Dunno where you're getting this from. Tell me the most hateful thing I said in this video - No, my entire channel.
i notice it and it kinds of irritate me i am confused of where the cello is
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
I'll add myself to the like brigade, the liking of the spatial wandering of the clarinet. It helps me visualise the performer's movement which I instantly recognise through my cabinets' spatial properties. I also dislike the reverberations on the second clip, it was surprisingly noticeable and your explanation nails what I'm hearing, for my system it confuses the sound stage and spatial presence. Hang on that's too audiophile, it's a messy sound in comparison to the pin sharp clarinet in the first recording, that's better.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@@AudioMasterclass have you given some extra work to the 'bot', auto responding with links to keep up the eyeballs? However, the 'bot' has won, I'll add them to my watch later 👌
@@AudioMasterclass ah ha, the response is bot driven, hence it's succinctness and lack of personalisation, the bot dished out these links to me last time, shame!
Paraphrasing the immortal words of Elvis Presley, you have a suspicious mind. I get many comments daily on the videos in this 3-part series. In nearly all cases the commenter's issue is already answered in the videos they haven't watched yet so I have cut-and-paste standard answers with links. As for the bot, that's me.
I assume it's not a thing that's done, but to get the experience you have from being in the audience, how would a recording from where the audience would be sound? I guess it wouldn't be possible to get a good sound when the audience is there while the recording is happening.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
My clarinet tutor moved more expansively than Hendrikx. And I sat next to her every week for an hour.
Your argument is putting a Platonic ideal of 4D live experience etched into a 2D media surface.
If you played clarinet (and I've played Weber's Concertino at 14), you'd play like a cartoon frog was dancing in your imagination too.
So if you wanted to get your prized experience of this performance, it'd have to be done through either 1.) Artificial intelligence generated home audio system
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
I listened to it on my hi fi stereo in my home. Big difference from my car. I had to put the speakers really close and angle them in. This recording sounds great to my ears. I do not consider myself to be an audiophile but I do like to listen to music on a good stereo system. The movement of the artists is not quite noticeable to me but you can hear it if you listen closely. I’ve played records that seemed to place instruments on a stage in front of me. It’s like I can tell where the drummer is sitting and where the bass guitar is sitting as if they are on stage in front of me. I get this from a vintage stereo system.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
You had me, then you lost me. I disagree with the axiom as much as I dislike its awful presentation.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28 [Edit: correct links]
I think everyone heard the "problem" if they had stereo image presented they may have killed their own enjoyment of the music if they were overwhelmed by the movement in the solo instrument which is something an audiophile would count as part of the artistry intended by the recording engineer
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
0 dBm is one milliwatt. Voltage, ohms, current and stuff follow from that. 3 dB is, as you say, a doubling or halving of power. 6 dB is a doubling of voltage and a quadrupling of power. EDIT: I think I answered someone else's question there. Never mind, it's all fun.
A bit hard to notice for myself, but what I did notice was that the instrument made a greater appearance on the left side of the headphone and some on the right and occasionally fluttered around.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
The thought of a solo instrument's sound coming from different positions at times and points where that sound is actually embellished by the apparent proximity to another complementary sound is interesting and adds another layer of experience. A gifted mixer could do wonderful things.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
I'm reminded of the way that the rise of stereo recordings in the sixties created (along with, of course, the vogue for "psychedelia") a tendency to move instruments about the stereo image quite wildly, guitar solos careening from speaker to speaker, and so on.
By the early seventies, recording engineers had calmed down some.
Nevertheless, popular music since the sixties rarely attempts to reproduce anything remotely like a "concert" experience. Even live recordings (the ones that are actually and entirely live) reproduce, of course, what's played with tons of amplification and effects.
It's possible to record an orchestra in the way one might record a rock band...and certainly, an interesting experiment to do so (although probably not with Bach and such).
So I'd say your axiom works only for music which does attempt to reproduce the concert hall experience. Obviously, if music is entirely studio-bound (such as the Beatles post-'66), there's no "concert hall experience" to speak of...and if we want to have a tiny little harpsichord overmatch an entire brass section, well then that's just fine.
But I do not think most classical music listeners want that kind of recording!
I would assume then a recording such as this: https://youtu.be/37kaymgFkUI?si=n_nwCggEZzjUAU7Q
In which Widmann is conducting whilst playing the solo would not fall into your idea of a good recording. Especially the 2nd movement where he makes several long sweeps across the microphone array. In my mind, his movement conveys the energy of the performance and the double duties he is performing whereas a more static position, recording wise, would take away from the reality of the performance. Would this not then go against your original axiom of reproducing the concert hall experience?
The concert hall experience is a benchmark because this is how the music was expected to be heard when it was written. As a concert-goer I don't hear anywhere near as much movement as in your example. I see three spaced boundary microphones on the stage. This is bound to exaggerate the movement of the clarinet way beyond what the audience hears. Either the producer and engineer wanted this exaggeration, or they tolerated it as a compromise for other aspects of the sound texture. You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28 [edited for correct links]
Hope this guy doesn't live in Scotland...
From the 1st of April, what he said here is a hate crime with multiple victims.
A mass hate criminal. A genocidal hater?
Opinions are nolonger acceptable.
"I wanted to hear it but ... I wasn't so sure I could" so it's not a mistake that you can hear the movement then? It's a choice and one you actually wanted to hear in person but didn't? I am kind of kidding because I think I know what you're getting at but that was too easy.
I wasn't sure what you were asking. I heard distortion in the strings which means input levels were too high. I also noticed a Lack of low end meaning a bad mix of volumes overall. The engineers weren't good. Compression won't fix pinning meters on strings. Then again I was listening on my phone. I can hear the bouncing clarinet though.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
it sounds like a doppler shift "spinning point source" post recording dynamic amplitude effect.
Also, what do we think of Giles Martin's new stereo mixes of Beatles albums? Any highlights or grievances?
nm u been did dat
Please make a Best Recordings of All Time List of albums for audio-enthusiasts!
My most concern is the Turntable Setup!
*1985 JVC Quartz Locked Fully Automatic Turntable QL-Y66F / Ortofon Black Cartridge 1.5 Tracking Force * 1984 JVC A-X900 Stereo Integrated Amplifier / Klipsch RB 5 Speakers
It takes me at least 20 to 35 minutes aligning the Cartridge I want everything be set-up precisely
Install the Cartridge. ...
Align the Cartridge. ...
Adjust the Vertical Tracking Angle. ...
Set the Tracking Force. ...
Set the Anti-Skating Force ...
Set the Q Damping .....
Make Sure the Turntable Is Level. ...
Tone Arm must be leveled and balanced at 0
The Speakers are good as your System
Time To Kick Back And Listen To My Records,Albums,Yes Vinyl :) ONLY! I Do Not Listen To To REMASTER Records they are Digital Remaster :(
Seems like you're having good old-fashioned audiophile fun.
David, i disagree to some level. I heard alot of chamber concerts, preferrably sitting in the first row. Yes, its my personal taste. But sitting in front of the (yes, smaller) orchestra i'm far more involved or immersed into that thing. And then i clearly hear any movement. Any. My brother (for instance) plays classical trumpet. And with a small baroque orchestration with three or four instruments beside of an smaller organ or positiv there is so few room for feet, instrument rests and music stands, that you can hear the instruments descent and emerge behind their music stands even. 😄 (The latter isn't what i really want to hear in a well engineered recording, anyways. There are definitely borders, even for me. And yes. The movement should be narrowed a bit or more. And slightly even a bit further.) 😙
You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
Live music is about a live experience. Recorded music is about an enhanced experience. It will always loose elements of the live music experience, but at the same time can add a level of closeness and intimacy with an artist that a typical venue live experience will lack.
The recording/mix and mastering engineers job is to deliver the intended and hopefully most enjoyable listening experience. The purpose of your listening system is not perfection, but greatest enjoyment - often the two go hand in hand to a greater or lesser extent, but each system makes compromises - it is up to you to choose the compromises you can live with and choose the areas where you desire the best possible. The music and the sonic experience you like will likely guide this.
I think the production team on the original recording did the right thing. They appear to accept and embrace the idea that it is a recording and not live and chose to deliver an enhanced experience that places you unnaturally close to a soloist giving you a level of access and intimacy with the artist you would never really get otherwise. To be fair, this is quite normal in many orchestral recordings. There is a balance to get it right. We as listeners do not have to agree or accept the production choices made. We choose the recordings we like the most for whatever personal reasons.
Your video was never about poor production. It was always about your personal choices vs other people personal choices and that is why we all choose different music, different artists, different systems etc.
You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
There is an immense amount to learn…
What a pleasure to be learning from an expert.. who loves the music…, I now figure I am a gear nut.., but I do love the music , the skills…🙏🙏🙏🙏
You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
I love learning about the context of what I can/ can’t likely hear.. what the gear is doing…
I commented, at length, on the last video, albeit after this follow-up video was published. Our Oxfordshire audiophile seems to hate the stereo imaging of instruments. I can agree up unto a point. Until a few decades ago, it was customary to mic an instrumentalist in mono to avoid this near-field stereo misalignment, which forces the audiophile to hear a ridiculously-close solo performance, as if the listener were not on the 2nd row (cheapskate!) but sitting on the floor in front of the performer, cross-legged, like a spoiled child. Or at least from the conductor's POV!
But we are modern listeners here. We know how micing works. We know what we are hearing. You see a lot of articles talking of the "intimacy" of recordings now. That's essentially a bunch of drivel, I know. But the reality of mimicking concert halls, whether in the reverb machine or in the mic placement or the stereo mix, is such that an audiophile can actually adapt, re-interpret, and do the mental processing necessary to transform the music to a pleasant sound if all of the elements are there.
So the answer to the stated question is pedantic, boring, and mundane. "Yep." We hear it. You seem to be asking whether the recording sounds like a 2nd-row listener would hear it. I mean, no offense, duh. I mean, duh. We hear what was recorded. As a sound engineer amateur, I hear what sounds like something that could be tweaked somewhat. Or if the goal is to sound like a 2nd rower, I could make a major issue out of this recording and go off all half-cocked and forcefully spew expletives at the sound engineer for NOT making it sound like a 2nd rower would hear it. But we all know that it wasn't recorded or mixed for that. It was mixed, miced, and recorded to be "intimate" and animated and lively. It's more like the 2nd row of the orchestra, sitting in front of the soloist and playing the violin or something.
You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@@AudioMasterclassOk, but do you agree?
@@AllAmericanGuyExpert My agreement or disagreement, and to what degree, can be found in my videos.
@@AudioMasterclassWell, I think you learned a thing ... or two. I was not your only teacher from the looks of the comment stream. I like making money, and I like learning. Which do you like better?
I have so much debt to repay to you, both in learning and earning. I knew nothing from my 40+ years in pro audio until you brought it all into crystal clarity.@@AllAmericanGuyExpert
The only 'problem' is your slightly swollen ego 😑
I don't know where you get 'slightly' from.
lol, i fear you've missed the artist's intention completely, although your commitment to the wilful ignorance bit is commendable 😂
the prima donna is the lead in an opera, who may be moving around stage during their performance, and is also used derogatorily to refer to someone who thinks they are the lead when they are not, which can also be interpreted to imply a certain degree of frenetic action, and it appears that the intention behind the performance was to really emphasize the way the clarinetist moves as they play, perhaps intending to capture not what the instrument actually sounds like to the audience, but instead, how the musician intuits it ought to sound as they move around, but ultimately, the only way to really know any of this would simply be to interview the musician who made the piece to ask him, presuming he is contemporary.
In opera recording where there may be an actual prima donna, they may walk around the stage, or what represents the stage, to imitate a live performance. In this case, the player is not walking, he is moving his instrument. There is video of the recording that demonstrates this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this movement being captured, although in a recording it can be distracting because you can't link what you hear with what you see, because there's nothing to see. In this recording however, the stereo image is almost as wide as the distance between the speakers and in addition to the side to side swaying movement, individual notes pop out at random directions. This is not at all realistic as I pointed out in my video. However, if this is something the market for the recording likes, then there may be profit in it and it is difficult to argue against that. It isn't realistic though - nothing like you would hear in a concert. I'm a concert goes so I know that precisely. How's that for my wilful ignorance?
@@AudioMasterclass lmao, stupendous! You’re doing a lovely job of completely ignoring the artist’s intention behind the work, and it’s hilarious to watch/read! 🤣👍
I'm pleased you find this amusing. If the artist had demanded 'Make my clarinet dance like a demented frog with a substance abuse problem' then yes, their intention has been captured perfectly.
I don't disagree with this perspective despite not considering it completely wrong to have the sound swaying from side to side. In my head Id like to imagine I am as close to the soloist as posible, and I believe that is why having a wide soundstage that makes you feel like you are surrounded by the orchestra to be very moving (literally hehe)
If the engineer want us to focus on the notes coming out of the instrument. he would have used an "in-instrument mic". What I think Audiophiles like this recording is because it capture the movement of the person playing the instrument. It is NOT static, and they consider it a good thing. Technically speaking if we are to capture a "dancing performer" of an instrument we have 2x option. 1. He/She do not dance and play as static as possible. 2. The Mic dance with it, you place the microphone in the instrument, on from of their amplifier, you try to control the gain to compensate for the "movement". Now on a recording we do not want that, we want to heard the movement of the musician, it is called the human factor.
An argument can be made, no doubt, that creating a recording can be a part of performative expression itself, including additional effects, whether intended or not.
A lot of unique and cherished sound styles from the vinyl era exist only due to bad recording equipment and techniques.
For example, recording jazz using modern equipment ends up sounding nothing like "classic jazz" from black-and-white cinema, so people often use special filters and tricks to make it sound "properly".
Spot mics have their place, but definitely not to reproduce a 'live' experience. During lockdown orchestral recordings were transmitted with each section individually mic'ed. I loved that sound - it gave a composer's ear view of the music. Full detail of all the notes and their interrelation. Wonderful, not a 'live' reproduction of being there with just two ears, a totally different thing.
The most important thing though is for people to play and enjoy music in whatever way they can.
Ha! Second row promenader ! Pa ! I'm a front row stander :-) As I said ( twice ) a real recording is a stereo pair - no spot mics at all - really close to the back of the conductor.
The curse of a mixing desk has plagued me all my life. I once was allowed in to the sound recording and mixing room at the Royal Albert Hall, while Sir Adrian Bolt was rehearsing 'The Planets'. The audio mic master - the human at the desk, first let me hear a stereo pair set at my perfect position. It was wonderful ! Perfectly reproducing what I actually used to hear standing front row and as close to center as I could get ( by queueing all day - not pushing in ). But then... he started adding spot mics, it got worse and worse - artificial dreadfulness, pulling my ears apart all over the sound stage. The killer blow was dealt when he added what he called 'atmos ' - mics at the back of the hall ! What was he trying to do - kill the sound entirely? It ended up sounding as if I was in the stalls with a tube pointing at the leader of each orchestral section. I may have cried. A hateful experience. The sound chap was really proud of his work though, as was the BBC presumably. Nothing beats attending in real life. Ambisonics get close though.
Allegro / Vivace - Mmmm yeah this is A Frog Jumping around but I blame the Sound Engineer for not Softening the Playing especially as it was being Paired/ Juxtaposed with the Oboe Always a Tad more Menacing than the Demented Frenetic Sound from the Clarinet done to a Crisp.in the High Register ⚖️😵💫👍🔩🫣🔱
The Hammond Organ is my thing and the inventor, Laurens Hammond, hated the use of the Leslie Speaker with his wonderful instrument. He thought it should be pure and unadulterated and did not get on with Don Leslie and his spinning device "ruining" the sound of the Hammond. So, as you must know, when they are put together the sound is magnificent, theatrical and thrilling. Innovation is key to producing new and unusual sounds to enhance our musical experience and it is the same with the orchestra and all forms of music. You do not need an axiom, just your ears and your appreciation.
A fun link for comment readers - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jSH73-4gMs&ab_channel=hans1970
What I find funny is how many audiophiles claim to be sound experts and claim to be able to hear a pin drop at 100 ft but are tone deft (and yes I've known a number of them) . 🤣🤣
Ah yes, the nausea inducing AI sockpuppet you've set up to disengenously push the opinions you wish those who disagree with you held, termed exactly as you'd like them for convinience really drives your point home and doesn't detract from the video at all.
You are worse than the most stereotypical of the Audiophiles insisting your subjective response to something has greater merit than anyone elses exactly as they do.
Funny that if you make up your own axioms and set your own goals for a recording you had nothing to do with, a subjective quality you disagree with can suddenly magically become a definite flaw by those standards.
And you can sit there, using AI products built on the theft of millions of peoples creative works to avoid the cost of making a visually interesting video while delivering nothing more than opinions.
If your course are similar in quality to your videos, definitely seems like something to avoid at all costs.
Thank you for your insights. If you would like to clarify further please feel free.
Comparing the sound movement of a clarinet and a violin is wrong in itself. Violins shoots quite large compared to the very focused sound coming from the clarinet's bell.
Of course both of them will sound much different when moving, violin being more subtle and the clarinet much more obivous. Have someone play the clarinet right in front of you and ask them to move around when they play and do the same with a violin player and maybe you'll catch what I'm saying. I don't think this is a mistake; it would mean the audio engineer can't even use PAN correctly or choose his mics correctly.
@2:42 Literally listening to this while sitting on my couch 12 feet from my speakers, in a room with bare plaster walls lol 😅
Over my head. If you're this picky it must be awful hard to just enjoy the music.
That Final Axiom you presented is precisely correct. (Which means you're also wrong lol)
Well done. Good video, great response.
I had my Kali Audio IN-8 pair about three feet behind me in a few feet apart, and I did notice this wandering Clarinet, but I couldn't put my finger on what to label it, until you said it, weird.
This is just a really weird gotcha lmfao
Audiophiles get to the extreme of course but going the opposite extreme to get them in a gotcha makes you just as out of touch.
Oh god trying to invoke math in a subjective debate. I should have realized this was just rage bait for views. You're welcome for the engagement though.
I understand where you're coming from regarding "to each their own", but there's nothing specified that a recording should be of concert hall experience is there. Art is art, and every artist's (sound director in this case) interpretation should be respected. I am sure as they have been doing recordings for forever that they know about the movement thing, so this is most likely them leaning to it as a artistic direction rather than it being a defect.
Edited: The first line in Evil Penguin Classic's YouTube channel's description even said "Yes, we record classical music, but not in any classic sense." and also "Most labels are out there to acquire a standard catalogue of (some type or era of) art music, but we focus on the persons behind the record. " so this is definitely a creative thing and I don't think you should call it a problem. If you dislike it, then that's fine - but it's not a problem if the artist doesn't think it is one.
not logitech... dem personal attack
I watched the first video in full. I can't watch this one in full. All I hear is pinnacle self-righteous "I'm right, you're wrong, even in a subjective context" arrogance dripping out of every word, and bringing in an AI-gen bot to read some shit off a wiki page just made it more insufferable. This whole thing is just rage-bait to me. Wanna nitpick spatial characteristics? How about let's put the screws to everyone completely neglecting the spatial engineering of video game audio.
Gear-nitpicking audiophiles spending more money on perfecting the electrical and acoustic properties of their listening setup than on the rest of their life combined are missing key points - in that we agree and are friends. But you are using an incredibly flawed example and the idea that this is all there is to being an audiophile, or that there is no other kind of audiophile who has the right to call themselves such, is disgusting and reeks of the same pointless, point-dodging, goalpost-dancing gatekeeping as Queer Twitter discourse nitpicking what it means to be "Lesbian".
You should probably calm down.
Although I enjoyed Roeland Hendrikx's performance very much, I agree that the recording is wrong and would not like to hear close stereo mikes used for soloists become a fad or trend.
For you, does the Hendrikx recording also make the soloist sound too large on the stero soundstage, like he's as wide as the orchestra?
Could multiple microphones be used to obtain a good mono mix of a moving performner, or would that introduce phase changes?
For the true concert hall experience, we would need two dozen speakers to blast against a wall and have the sound rebound on it to the listener.
Sooooooo......
Headphones, I still don't notice it, even after you point it out. Even did a left/right speaker test video on YouTube, no problem. Maybe I'm just a potato, but I still enjoyed the music :D
Don't worry that you're a potato. You might be a King Edward.
You can comment on this video at YouTube
Friday September 8, 2023
David Mellor
David Mellor is CEO and Course Director of Audio Masterclass. David has designed courses in audio education and training since 1986 and is the publisher and principal writer of Adventures In Audio.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @Daveinet: A clarinet that directs high frequencies to one side and low frequencies to the other would be a fascinating instrument.
@Daveinet replies to @Daveinet: @@AudioMasterclass Or just done with EQ. Seems likely an XY mic placement with a gentle high pass and low pass filters. There is plenty of overlap in the center frequencies, so the transition from left to right is smooth, but listening closely the left-right image is very frequency dependent. It is very consistent.
@likafoss: I recently got comfortable with my own 'audiophile' setup with a DAC, AMP and the new R70x Refine. I am sad to say I could not hear the wandering but on one lower note. Perhaps I'm spoiled by the over-stimulating electronic music I often listen to that takes the stereo profile from maximum left channel, to maximum right channel multiple times over in a matter of seconds.
@Yoni1200: There us nothing wrong with spends lots if money on audio equipment if you want the best
@No-One-Important-Here: So it all comes down to taste. Even the hypothetical orchestral recording standard doesn’t exist. It depends on where you are sitting. 😂
@toddlee2571: When adding a zero or two to the price of gear only results in incremental improvements in sound quantity, then music ceases to be a part of the hobby. I like music too much to be an audiophile.
@deonweeks: i could hear it, i am an audiophile, and i thought it was intentional to give the recording more playfulness.
@Marcus.Berntsson: The way that the clarinette is jumpig and paning throughout the clip is not tasteful to my ears. It makes it somewhat harder to enjoy the overall performance.
@efwaves4665: These so called audiophiles are just “showing off” people. I listen music every day. My equipment isn’t cheap, nor very expensive. Just the most important to me are the speakers. They aren’t bad or good ones. It’s abu what sound you like. The best speakers to me can be the worst speakers for someone ele and vice versa. There’s no need to spend an extravagant bunch of money to listen to music. And the most important is the music, not the gear. I have the money to buy very expensive gear but I don’t buy it. The sound I have is great, so why should I so called “upgrade” ? What’s great about audiofiles is that at least they make some people richer 🙂
@EchterAlsFake: As a 17 year old guy with 200€ HD560S I wouldn't consider myself an Audiophile, but still above the average. Music is really important for me and it drives the directions for my life. When I listen to Hi-Res music, it's not about having a perfect recording, a perfect balance between L and R and mixing. I take the music file I receive as perfect. If the recording is biased to the left I take that "AS IS" and see it like "Okay that's how it was supposed to be when it got recorded". I don't see it as an issue or a faulty recording.
However, I want to hear every detail in all of its clarity when I listen to music. That's why I've bought expensive headphones and when I am older even mroe expensive headphones. Because I can immediately tell the difference between my HD560S and all the "gaming headphones" for a similar price, that my friends have.
@bstract_w5: This is overthinking, nearing perfection. Now I know I'm not an audiophile.
@loganmedia4401: Strictly speaking you shouldn't listen on headphones if you want the music to approximate a real live performance, because they tend to make it sound like the music is inside your head.
I think the issue with trying to replicate how it would sound in a concert hall is that there is no one definitive way to do that. Does the concert sound the same from everywhere in a hall? Do microphones and other recording equipment add their own alterations to the sound? This is why a recording should be considered its own unique experience.
@NR23derek: OK, seeing as you've come back to this. In your original look at this, I said in my comment that I heard it but didn't think of it as a fault as such, actually I think I mentally put it down to room acoustics of the hall. But no, I've been thinking about it, it's the way the mics were arranged by someone who didn't know what he (or she) was doing that we were hearing.
I did ask why so many mics were used for the recording, you said they didn't use all of them, but I think they did use the two on stands close to the conductor pointing straight ahead toward the soloist and that they were panned left/right. Now why they would have done that is beyond me, but it explains what we're hearing. The soloist wouldn't have to move far at all to leap about the stereo images like, as you so eloquently put it, a demented frog with a substance abuse problem.
I really don't get that mic set-up at all. Why would you ever have two live mics mounted parallel, close together (but not co-incident), like that? And certainly you wouldn't pan them left/right, there will also be phase differences between the two mics which would do weird things to the sound stage if you did.
My way of recording a concert like this would have been essentially a crossed pair of mics - as coincident as possible - somewhere close to the conductor. Several such pairs at different distances from the orchestra might be an idea and maybe a few other mics just in case something needs a bit of re-enforcement. But those two at the front pointing straight ahead, no, that's just plain vanilla wrong.
As regards audiophiles though, they wouldn't be interested in this because they don't listen to the music, they listen to their equipment.
@DisasterPreparedness: The highter noter are right channel
@AudioMasterclass replies to @DisasterPreparedness: I don't think any other commenter has noticed this. Well spotted.
@alessandromerlettidepalo: I should be a videophile because I can't stand every iteration of the music with the video of the "forest": besides that clipping due to the sunlight, there is that blue flat little line on the bottom of the screen that appears, for example, at 8:03 and keeps moving like a download animation till the end at 8:24. It should be a reflection in some original video that has been cropped or something worse. If you want to see it, you should see the video without the player controls, so go to 8:00, let it play and move out from the player so that controls will disappear.
If you didn't notice it that's fine, if you don't see it now please consult a very good ophthalmologist. Full screen is very nice, it seems like some VGA revival hidden animated glitter. 🙃
@Chiva.: That ai girl scares the shit outta me ngl.
@amirfakhribadri7994: That's is personal style I accept but still wrong 💯
@amirfakhribadri7994: Exactly ,I found unbalanced volume and more.
@SubhadipGhoshGhosh: All I can get from this, is a little bit of overlapping stereo. And a few noise grains.
@TitusRex: Exactly. Comments in the other video were praising the movement, but in a concert you don't hear any movement because the soloist is sufficiently far way from you that the movement is irrelevant.
@MrCyberwave: Love this guy, mentioned my old z5500 in his other video, now he says no logitechs allowed... (not an audiophile because of price) would love to though. Again, love your vids mr.
@Andy-pu2iv: Wow. For a bloke that seems to have an issue with "audiophiles" you don't half get bogged down in what you think "should" be a "correct" recording of an orchestra. Be gone from my YouTube feed.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @Andy-pu2iv: Oh dear. You don’t like it that I have opinions. You’re not going to like my channel so please stay away.
@taijusatomi-defoe42: You’re right. We gotta make it as accurate to the experience of being in the music hall. That is why we should put mics in every single seat in the audience, and make as many tracks as there are seats so you can choose which seat you can “sit” in. And let’s include every single tiny sound by the audience. And finally, let’s include the waiting period before the concert. You know what that’s not enough. Let’s include the buying of the ticket, and the drive to the concert. Then maybe we can be closer to the classical concert experience that is correct
@AudioMasterclass replies to @taijusatomi-defoe42: During BBC Proms season, I devote nine hours to each concert I attend. Can’t wait for next summer.
@tweed0929: I'm getting an impression that the worst kind of an audiophile is the author of the video himself.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @tweed0929: If I did aspire to become an audiophile then, yes, I'm sure I'd want to be the worst kind.
@VintageGearMan: Wow this was majorly insightful! ( Brilliant) !!! This is why I keep coming back.
@softsmoken: i heard it! 230usd iems... i thought i would be wrong but it was right the stereo imaging!!
@bardsamok9221: The "axiom" that classical music 'is' or 'should be' as close to the 'concert hall experience' as possible is naive and wrong. There are countless techniques on great classical records where this 'axiom' is intentionally broken by engineers et al.
However it would be correct to say "SOME recording engineers attempt to trick the listener to thinking the are getting the as close to the concert hall experience as possible - while attempting to hide many compromises." Many others don't.
Even if that "axiom" was true, the most obvious issue breaking that rule is the obviously distorted clarinet. Unless you're attempting to say the clarinet was playing through a valve amp in the "concert hall experience".
If you're going to be polemic, at least get it right.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @bardsamok9221: An axiom is a fundamental assumption or starting point that we accept as true without proof and it forms the foundation of a logical system. So I based my argument on an axiom that I explicitly stated that I made up myself, also saying that I could have started from a different axiom. If you're going to be difficult, at least try to take in and understand what I said.
@lexecomplexe4083: I have an interesting perspective on this. I have used cheap earbuds, very high quality headphones, and a budget mid range JBL headset. While the cheap earbuds cannot pick up on this defect, the budget JBL's pick it up easily. This would not be the case for any budget headphones just ten years ago. What this means, is that the performance floor for average or budget headphones has risen dramatically. The defect is easily heard on my 30$ JBL headset. Headsets often have slightly compromised audio compared to their headphone counterparts. But now, between my JBL and my expensive and high end [entry-level high end/ -200$ range] headphones from Audiotechnica, this defect is not any more difficult to make out in the JBL's. The ATH-60X technically sounds better, but the fact that track separation and sound discernment have come so close to this in my budget headset, not even a dedicated headphones but a headset of all things, is nothing short of incredible. It is so exciting to see the performance floor rise so rapidly. Budget headphones from just 10 years ago would not come close to where they are today. We are quickly approaching a future where the performance delta between budget and entry high end headphones will be shrunk to the point many will not even perceive the difference. Audiophiles will of course hear the difference, but the perceived difference is shrinking and it is an exciting phenomena to witness. Great videos!
@devlinX: What you seem to think of as an issue isnt an issue at all and is just the quirk of the recording.
Audio doesnt have to replicate the music hall experience. If you want the music hall experience, then go to a music hall.
@sebastian_olthuis: As someone that has quite decent hearing but would never call himself a audiophile, i have some high quality reference audio stuff for editing and tried quite alot gear thats out there. I find it funny that people use reference high quality studio headphones and say they do it hecause it sounds good not because there pretentious
You really think someone that records/mixed something doesn't know how most consumer audio gear is tuned ? Reference audio gear sounds funny enough incredibly flat and not really ,,fun" i bit higher treble and base mainly makes music more energetic and fun to listen to if not overdone.
Even tho i have high quality stuff i woule never go for a walk with something like that i use my sonyxm5 headphones via bluetooth 😂. There comfortable convenient and sound incredibly fun and have great noice cancelling.
People cry about compress from Bluetooth and swar by vinyl meanwhile yes its analog audio and isnt compressed. There clear physical limitations specially with very high and very deep tones do to the movement of the needle witch cause more loss of detail then modern high quality Bluetooth codecs. Yes Vinyl have a special kinda sound and feel to them, but its at a high pirce that being degradation over time, and even faster degradation while listening.
Meaning only way to experience the music as it was ,,intended" on a vinyl is when its brand new/first few times of listening.
If you think you can hear the difference between high Bitrate streaming and vlac (and that is indeed a noticable one for some people) do that. Oh and everything marketing itself as ,,for audiophiles" is a scam. Electroboom and linus tech tips made quite a funny videos about scammy audiophile gear 😂.
Oh also to make more people mad 😂 if you above 30 witch most people that cab effort audiophile gear are. Every year you age your gear becomes more ueless so to loss in frequentie, technically kids hear most detail by far actually. So dads give your gear to your 8 year old who actually hears all the difference ☠️.
@inwiththeold1: Can I make the argument that you really wouldn't hear movement in an orchestra because they're mic'd that way. If you sat front and center at an orchestra and this soloist played right in front of you, you would hear him moving around.
Music is art and recording it gives you a medium to hear the music in ways that are otherwise impractical or impossible. The movement is part of the artists performance, so why not capture that?
@ZeldagigafanMatthew: audio enjoyers: I use your equipment to enjoy the music of others.
"audiophiles": I use your music to enjoy my equipment.
@doludeli: ok... For the previous video and the music sequence, with a cellphone headphone attached to an ordinary laptop I captured that the clarinet was moving all the time. But I didn't think that it was a fault; instead I thought that with the dispersion of the clarinet sound the artist tried to create a much more cheerful atmosphere, as the sound moved all around like a butterfly.
@bobrze: cry me a river
@heraclitop7904: The problem is that the GRAN majority of the sound engineers, and even more the audiophiles, unfortunately ARE NOT musicians (except maybe a lilttle bit of guitar or keyboards) ! So they dont listen to and dont understand the music itself (unlike a musician), but they hear and listen to the sound equipment... (something without sense for a real musician...).
I suggest to all the audiophiles and sound engineers to start studying music seriously and becoming REAL musicians instead...
@fwup1: I'm not an expert or anything but... From my perspective, if you wanted the most pure replication of a concert hall experience, you could just put an expensive binural mic in the location where people would normally sit. I'd bet the recording would be a cool gimmick for a while but no one would prefer that over what we currently do. I believe that the goal with using many mics to record each individual instrument is to allow someone to master it afterwards and produce a more well rounded balanced song. I really enjoy music that allows instruments to move locations within a 3D soundspace. They make me want to move with the music and make me feel more immersed. The slight movements of the clarinet in this piece makes me feel the same way. At the end of the day, it's all in the eyes of the producer.
There's a perfect video example of what I'd call one of the most immersive musical audios that uses movement. Doubt anyone will read this comment but if ya wanna check it out, it's called: 3D Sound - Binural Recording of a Musical Performance on youtube.
@stevenroach2296: I made it all the way through the first video. Only made it half way on this one. It's all so tiresome and petty. Good luck.
@NukePooch1: Thank you for the follow up. I just found your channel, so I missed the party, but I am definitely one of those who agreed with you that the original recording is flawed.
I'm not an audiophile, never claimed to be, but I do have a strong background in live pro audio...and that kind of movement from a static sound source simply isn't heard when sitting in the audience.
A live recording should give me the experience of being there as it was recorded, as closely as possible anyways.
@brainfreeze1925: As a not-particularly-skilled sax player in a blues band, my hearing ability is vastly better than my playing. This said, while I really appreciate a masterful studio recording, I prefer a less than perfect live performance recording with all of its flaws. For my sensibilities, the live performance is often more emotive and spontaneous. For the live audience, it's more than the notes being played (and recorded), it's the whole vibe picked up from the stage and the audience. Obviously, someone holding up their iPhone and recording the show doesn't cut it. A well-engineered recording of the live performance does. I've recorded in a studio a few times and while the final product is amazing, it's considerably more stifled than being on stage and recording. Being isolated in a recording booth, making sure you maintain the optimum distance from the mic, and not get the body language cues from your band mates and audience, doesn't do much for spontaneity and passion or the performance. Thanks for the video.
@kruuuser: Your initial axiom is not specific enough - The concert hall experience (for a listener at point X in the hall) should be replicated. With the Weber clarinet piece, I felt that the orchestra were spread out neatly at a small distance from me, but the soloist was much closer. I imagine this is what the conductor would experience (I liked this effect).
The other "correct" pieces gave an impression of the whole orchestra spread as before, but with soloist at a fixed point amongst them, all at a distance from the listener, who must have been seated some rows further back in the hall. Coming straight from the Weber performance, this felt flatter and less animated to me.
So, where is the correct place in the concert hall to sit? I don't go to classical concerts often, and last time I was at London's Festival Hall I sat 3 levels up at the very front end of the row of boxes, almost over the stage. A very odd place that I would not have chosen, but not unpleasant as a listener.
@ricardobarrios4159: Youtube audio quality.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @ricardobarrios4159: You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@alajononon: Disclaimer: I don't listen to classical music so my experience with live recordings and even studio albums probably gives me a bias toward a different style of production (if that makes sense). I think it's interesting that your standard is the realism of the experience when I'm looking for an abstract experience. Even with concert recordings, I'm not imagining the performance or feeling like I'm there. I'm either physically feeling the music or having abstract daydreams play out. I appreciate you sharing your perspective because it never even occurred to me that people would imagine they're at a show despite that making perfect sense. It definitely helps me understand the negative reactions people will have to live recordings or even the performance if they are attending it. For instance, many folks want the music to sound just like the album version. Or at least as close as possible. Anyway, liking and subscribing!
@wavfile44kv2: I heard the clarinet problem. I also heard the over-compressed sound quality and lack of depth in the ambience...
@therealvbw: Doesn't seem like 80% panning to me (headphones). I was paying equal attention to the other instruments
@AudioMasterclass replies to @therealvbw: You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@timematrix: My axiom is that musicians know how microphones work. If the soloist moved between the two microphones, then that was their intention. I'd say most artists have intentions we dislike so we only listen to the handful of artists we do like
@AudioMasterclass replies to @timematrix: Musicians who are wearing headphones do know how microphones work because they can hear it. Otherwise, they either guess or just leave it to the engineer. You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@90080603: I think the main issue here is you are thinking of classical music recording, which is correct, but many people who have listen to "data made music" on the disco, have no problem withe the sound not being natural in one spot in the stereo image. some times music is made with this as an effect. who hasn´t heard the drums moving from left channel to the right channel. No one belive the drum set was fling from left to right, but it is a special effect you only can get via a stereo setup. therfor I think that you are correct when you say classical music recording, but a recording and mixing for the enjoyment can easily have the "instruments" flying between the channels. Now that atoms recording is being more popular, we will some times hear the music from all over the room. for me some of the atmos mixes sounds very strange, but som love to have this strange effect that isen´t possible to achieve from live music performance.
@este_marco: to each their own can be translated to french by the expression "les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas". It maybe exists word for word in english but english isn't my birth language so idk
@AudioMasterclass replies to @este_marco: In English we say "De gustibus non est disputandum"
@este_marco replies to @este_marco: @@AudioMasterclass i feel like this is not english but i will trust you on this.
@Jeraestone: Mea Culpa : You Spotted me ..I was the One Cycling with One earbuds In ...Will Give your Work on this It's Due Consideration and Set up the Bang.and Olefsen Active Beo Speakers when I get Home 🖖👍🪐⚜️🔱
@kvernesdotten: Ok im genuinly curious what spesifically you were listening to this on if you hear the clarinet moving 80% into each side. I have now tried 4 different headphones and 2 different set of speakers. Ive even tried listening to it with from a single headphone cup, and sitting down next to one of the speakers and 80% of the clarinet either moving into or out of one side is just not happening no matter what I do. The only time it was even remotely that obvious was when I turned on software surround which makes everything sound horrible and never gets used.
Im not saying you dont hear that, but whatever you did I cannot recreate it. There is objectively no 80% shift of the clarinet to either side happening on any of my setups. There is some movement, but its barely noticable.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @kvernesdotten: If you don't hear this on headphones then perhaps it's your hearing that's the issue. How the brain interprets what the ear sends it is subjective and it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that some people are more sensitive to imaging, some less. If you go back to my first video on this topic, the vectorscope shots might help you pin down the issue. You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@sconescrewdriverson: With the comparison of the second recording, I hear it now more distinctly than before. I hear what you mean and I'm starting to agree with you. There's a warble there that lends the solo more of a wacky inflatable tube man feel, than the prancing along in a forest feel that was the intention of the piece.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @sconescrewdriverson: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@fatihkan2601: I don't want to get into higres world but I just did and My first experience made me throw all Bluetooth earpiece garbage in trash can. and this experience came with only a beginner amplifier pack. I can't imagine What's even beyond that point. I'm scared.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @fatihkan2601: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@IlPorseo: the ai chick is weird af
@AudioMasterclass replies to @IlPorseo: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@tjunts123: Great follow-up!
@contrabardus: This isn't really an "audiophile' issue though. It's a recording and sound engineering issue if it is one at all, and I don't think it is.
Also, those Atomos tracks exist. Though they are a bit less random about jumping around than is implied here. They deliberately use positional sound to create an intentional effect to place music around the listener.
Sometimes what you're going for with a recording is something you can't get from a live performance. The entire point is to do that.
Other times you're trying to get as close to a live performance as possible.
It is a preference thing, but it's also art, so sometimes playing around with the medium is the point.
Artists have been messing with this since stereo existed, Stix did this with high fi stereo with the "Kilroy Was Here" album back in the 80s for example.
Led Zeppelin also messed around with it with stereo drum recording on a few of their albums to create something you couldn't really get from a concert performance.
Not every recording is trying to recreate a live performance. As anyone else, I can appreciate the art and understand the intent without liking it. I can dislike something and still say that there isn't something "wrong" with it.
I think this is the case here. There isn't anything wrong with the recording, even though I'd prefer a different and more stable mix for it.
I don't disagree with you that this is not my preference for a recording of this nature, but I do see the value in doing things you can't otherwise for the sake of art by taking advantage of the unique qualities of the particular medium being used as well.
@GreenBlueWalkthrough: Why the hate? seroulsy why the hate for people who enjory the hobby of high fi or people who hear and enjory mucis different they you?
@AudioMasterclass replies to @GreenBlueWalkthrough: Dunno where you're getting this from. Tell me the most hateful thing I said in this video - No, my entire channel.
@seany7120: i notice it and it kinds of irritate me i am confused of where the cello is
@AudioMasterclass replies to @seany7120: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@MrFrobbo: I'll add myself to the like brigade, the liking of the spatial wandering of the clarinet. It helps me visualise the performer's movement which I instantly recognise through my cabinets' spatial properties. I also dislike the reverberations on the second clip, it was surprisingly noticeable and your explanation nails what I'm hearing, for my system it confuses the sound stage and spatial presence. Hang on that's too audiophile, it's a messy sound in comparison to the pin sharp clarinet in the first recording, that's better.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @MrFrobbo: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@MrFrobbo replies to @MrFrobbo: @@AudioMasterclass have you given some extra work to the 'bot', auto responding with links to keep up the eyeballs? However, the 'bot' has won, I'll add them to my watch later 👌
@MrFrobbo replies to @MrFrobbo: @@AudioMasterclass ah ha, the response is bot driven, hence it's succinctness and lack of personalisation, the bot dished out these links to me last time, shame!
@AudioMasterclass replies to @MrFrobbo: Paraphrasing the immortal words of Elvis Presley, you have a suspicious mind. I get many comments daily on the videos in this 3-part series. In nearly all cases the commenter's issue is already answered in the videos they haven't watched yet so I have cut-and-paste standard answers with links. As for the bot, that's me.
@Alexandra-Rex: I assume it's not a thing that's done, but to get the experience you have from being in the audience, how would a recording from where the audience would be sound? I guess it wouldn't be possible to get a good sound when the audience is there while the recording is happening.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @Alexandra-Rex: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@couchpotatter: My clarinet tutor moved more expansively than Hendrikx. And I sat next to her every week for an hour.
Your argument is putting a Platonic ideal of 4D live experience etched into a 2D media surface.
If you played clarinet (and I've played Weber's Concertino at 14), you'd play like a cartoon frog was dancing in your imagination too.
So if you wanted to get your prized experience of this performance, it'd have to be done through either 1.) Artificial intelligence generated home audio system
or2.) Your grand-niece performing the Weber piece after every evening supper.@AudioMasterclass replies to @couchpotatter: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@williemccraw2073: I listened to it on my hi fi stereo in my home. Big difference from my car. I had to put the speakers really close and angle them in. This recording sounds great to my ears. I do not consider myself to be an audiophile but I do like to listen to music on a good stereo system. The movement of the artists is not quite noticeable to me but you can hear it if you listen closely. I’ve played records that seemed to place instruments on a stage in front of me. It’s like I can tell where the drummer is sitting and where the bass guitar is sitting as if they are on stage in front of me. I get this from a vintage stereo system.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @williemccraw2073: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@qwertyqwertz2802: You had me, then you lost me. I disagree with the axiom as much as I dislike its awful presentation.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @qwertyqwertz2802: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28 [Edit: correct links]
@davetenhove9128: I think everyone heard the "problem" if they had stereo image presented they may have killed their own enjoyment of the music if they were overwhelmed by the movement in the solo instrument which is something an audiophile would count as part of the artistry intended by the recording engineer
@AudioMasterclass replies to @davetenhove9128: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@AudioMasterclass replies to @davetenhove9128: 0 dBm is one milliwatt. Voltage, ohms, current and stuff follow from that. 3 dB is, as you say, a doubling or halving of power. 6 dB is a doubling of voltage and a quadrupling of power. EDIT: I think I answered someone else's question there. Never mind, it's all fun.
@cosmicalsounds: A bit hard to notice for myself, but what I did notice was that the instrument made a greater appearance on the left side of the headphone and some on the right and occasionally fluttered around.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @cosmicalsounds: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@STORMMusic-co7jl: The thought of a solo instrument's sound coming from different positions at times and points where that sound is actually embellished by the apparent proximity to another complementary sound is interesting and adds another layer of experience. A gifted mixer could do wonderful things.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @STORMMusic-co7jl: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@jeffreynorman9180: I'm reminded of the way that the rise of stereo recordings in the sixties created (along with, of course, the vogue for "psychedelia") a tendency to move instruments about the stereo image quite wildly, guitar solos careening from speaker to speaker, and so on.
By the early seventies, recording engineers had calmed down some.
Nevertheless, popular music since the sixties rarely attempts to reproduce anything remotely like a "concert" experience. Even live recordings (the ones that are actually and entirely live) reproduce, of course, what's played with tons of amplification and effects.
It's possible to record an orchestra in the way one might record a rock band...and certainly, an interesting experiment to do so (although probably not with Bach and such).
So I'd say your axiom works only for music which does attempt to reproduce the concert hall experience. Obviously, if music is entirely studio-bound (such as the Beatles post-'66), there's no "concert hall experience" to speak of...and if we want to have a tiny little harpsichord overmatch an entire brass section, well then that's just fine.
But I do not think most classical music listeners want that kind of recording!
@embfixer: I would assume then a recording such as this: https://youtu.be/37kaymgFkUI?si=n_nwCggEZzjUAU7Q
In which Widmann is conducting whilst playing the solo would not fall into your idea of a good recording. Especially the 2nd movement where he makes several long sweeps across the microphone array. In my mind, his movement conveys the energy of the performance and the double duties he is performing whereas a more static position, recording wise, would take away from the reality of the performance. Would this not then go against your original axiom of reproducing the concert hall experience?
@AudioMasterclass replies to @embfixer: The concert hall experience is a benchmark because this is how the music was expected to be heard when it was written. As a concert-goer I don't hear anywhere near as much movement as in your example. I see three spaced boundary microphones on the stage. This is bound to exaggerate the movement of the clarinet way beyond what the audience hears. Either the producer and engineer wanted this exaggeration, or they tolerated it as a compromise for other aspects of the sound texture. You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28 [edited for correct links]
@davebutler1264: Hope this guy doesn't live in Scotland...
From the 1st of April, what he said here is a hate crime with multiple victims.
A mass hate criminal. A genocidal hater?
Opinions are nolonger acceptable.
@nowt2957: "I wanted to hear it but ... I wasn't so sure I could" so it's not a mistake that you can hear the movement then? It's a choice and one you actually wanted to hear in person but didn't? I am kind of kidding because I think I know what you're getting at but that was too easy.
@baronvonlichtenstein: I wasn't sure what you were asking. I heard distortion in the strings which means input levels were too high. I also noticed a Lack of low end meaning a bad mix of volumes overall. The engineers weren't good. Compression won't fix pinning meters on strings. Then again I was listening on my phone. I can hear the bouncing clarinet though.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @baronvonlichtenstein: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@lectrikdog: it sounds like a doppler shift "spinning point source" post recording dynamic amplitude effect.
@harryharrison3070: Also, what do we think of Giles Martin's new stereo mixes of Beatles albums? Any highlights or grievances?
@harryharrison3070 replies to @harryharrison3070: nm u been did dat
@harryharrison3070: Please make a Best Recordings of All Time List of albums for audio-enthusiasts!
@stevejordan2575: My most concern is the Turntable Setup!
*1985 JVC Quartz Locked Fully Automatic Turntable QL-Y66F / Ortofon Black Cartridge 1.5 Tracking Force * 1984 JVC A-X900 Stereo Integrated Amplifier / Klipsch RB 5 Speakers
It takes me at least 20 to 35 minutes aligning the Cartridge I want everything be set-up precisely
Install the Cartridge. ...
Align the Cartridge. ...
Adjust the Vertical Tracking Angle. ...
Set the Tracking Force. ...
Set the Anti-Skating Force ...
Set the Q Damping .....
Make Sure the Turntable Is Level. ...
Tone Arm must be leveled and balanced at 0
The Speakers are good as your System
Time To Kick Back And Listen To My Records,Albums,Yes Vinyl :) ONLY! I Do Not Listen To To REMASTER Records they are Digital Remaster :(
@AudioMasterclass replies to @stevejordan2575: Seems like you're having good old-fashioned audiophile fun.
@timoheinrich8123: David, i disagree to some level. I heard alot of chamber concerts, preferrably sitting in the first row. Yes, its my personal taste. But sitting in front of the (yes, smaller) orchestra i'm far more involved or immersed into that thing. And then i clearly hear any movement. Any. My brother (for instance) plays classical trumpet. And with a small baroque orchestration with three or four instruments beside of an smaller organ or positiv there is so few room for feet, instrument rests and music stands, that you can hear the instruments descent and emerge behind their music stands even. 😄 (The latter isn't what i really want to hear in a well engineered recording, anyways. There are definitely borders, even for me. And yes. The movement should be narrowed a bit or more. And slightly even a bit further.) 😙
@AudioMasterclass replies to @timoheinrich8123: You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@khazul0: Live music is about a live experience. Recorded music is about an enhanced experience. It will always loose elements of the live music experience, but at the same time can add a level of closeness and intimacy with an artist that a typical venue live experience will lack.
The recording/mix and mastering engineers job is to deliver the intended and hopefully most enjoyable listening experience. The purpose of your listening system is not perfection, but greatest enjoyment - often the two go hand in hand to a greater or lesser extent, but each system makes compromises - it is up to you to choose the compromises you can live with and choose the areas where you desire the best possible. The music and the sonic experience you like will likely guide this.
I think the production team on the original recording did the right thing. They appear to accept and embrace the idea that it is a recording and not live and chose to deliver an enhanced experience that places you unnaturally close to a soloist giving you a level of access and intimacy with the artist you would never really get otherwise. To be fair, this is quite normal in many orchestral recordings. There is a balance to get it right. We as listeners do not have to agree or accept the production choices made. We choose the recordings we like the most for whatever personal reasons.
Your video was never about poor production. It was always about your personal choices vs other people personal choices and that is why we all choose different music, different artists, different systems etc.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @khazul0: You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@tigertiger1699: There is an immense amount to learn…
@tigertiger1699: What a pleasure to be learning from an expert.. who loves the music…, I now figure I am a gear nut.., but I do love the music , the skills…🙏🙏🙏🙏
@AudioMasterclass replies to @tigertiger1699: You can find my further thoughts on this topic here https://youtu.be/EdDnAnSPQpg and here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@tigertiger1699: I love learning about the context of what I can/ can’t likely hear.. what the gear is doing…
@AllAmericanGuyExpert: I commented, at length, on the last video, albeit after this follow-up video was published. Our Oxfordshire audiophile seems to hate the stereo imaging of instruments. I can agree up unto a point. Until a few decades ago, it was customary to mic an instrumentalist in mono to avoid this near-field stereo misalignment, which forces the audiophile to hear a ridiculously-close solo performance, as if the listener were not on the 2nd row (cheapskate!) but sitting on the floor in front of the performer, cross-legged, like a spoiled child. Or at least from the conductor's POV!
But we are modern listeners here. We know how micing works. We know what we are hearing. You see a lot of articles talking of the "intimacy" of recordings now. That's essentially a bunch of drivel, I know. But the reality of mimicking concert halls, whether in the reverb machine or in the mic placement or the stereo mix, is such that an audiophile can actually adapt, re-interpret, and do the mental processing necessary to transform the music to a pleasant sound if all of the elements are there.
So the answer to the stated question is pedantic, boring, and mundane. "Yep." We hear it. You seem to be asking whether the recording sounds like a 2nd-row listener would hear it. I mean, no offense, duh. I mean, duh. We hear what was recorded. As a sound engineer amateur, I hear what sounds like something that could be tweaked somewhat. Or if the goal is to sound like a 2nd rower, I could make a major issue out of this recording and go off all half-cocked and forcefully spew expletives at the sound engineer for NOT making it sound like a 2nd rower would hear it. But we all know that it wasn't recorded or mixed for that. It was mixed, miced, and recorded to be "intimate" and animated and lively. It's more like the 2nd row of the orchestra, sitting in front of the soloist and playing the violin or something.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @AllAmericanGuyExpert: You can find my previous video on this topic here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48PxwspDvrE and my further thoughts here https://youtu.be/m1VzhiBSv28
@AllAmericanGuyExpert replies to @AllAmericanGuyExpert: @@AudioMasterclassOk, but do you agree?
@AudioMasterclass replies to @AllAmericanGuyExpert: @@AllAmericanGuyExpert My agreement or disagreement, and to what degree, can be found in my videos.
@AllAmericanGuyExpert replies to @AllAmericanGuyExpert: @@AudioMasterclassWell, I think you learned a thing ... or two. I was not your only teacher from the looks of the comment stream. I like making money, and I like learning. Which do you like better?
@AudioMasterclass replies to @AllAmericanGuyExpert: I have so much debt to repay to you, both in learning and earning. I knew nothing from my 40+ years in pro audio until you brought it all into crystal clarity.@@AllAmericanGuyExpert
@heikos4264: The only 'problem' is your slightly swollen ego 😑
@AudioMasterclass replies to @heikos4264: I don't know where you get 'slightly' from.
@THarSul: lol, i fear you've missed the artist's intention completely, although your commitment to the wilful ignorance bit is commendable 😂
the prima donna is the lead in an opera, who may be moving around stage during their performance, and is also used derogatorily to refer to someone who thinks they are the lead when they are not, which can also be interpreted to imply a certain degree of frenetic action, and it appears that the intention behind the performance was to really emphasize the way the clarinetist moves as they play, perhaps intending to capture not what the instrument actually sounds like to the audience, but instead, how the musician intuits it ought to sound as they move around, but ultimately, the only way to really know any of this would simply be to interview the musician who made the piece to ask him, presuming he is contemporary.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @THarSul: In opera recording where there may be an actual prima donna, they may walk around the stage, or what represents the stage, to imitate a live performance. In this case, the player is not walking, he is moving his instrument. There is video of the recording that demonstrates this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this movement being captured, although in a recording it can be distracting because you can't link what you hear with what you see, because there's nothing to see. In this recording however, the stereo image is almost as wide as the distance between the speakers and in addition to the side to side swaying movement, individual notes pop out at random directions. This is not at all realistic as I pointed out in my video. However, if this is something the market for the recording likes, then there may be profit in it and it is difficult to argue against that. It isn't realistic though - nothing like you would hear in a concert. I'm a concert goes so I know that precisely. How's that for my wilful ignorance?
@THarSul replies to @THarSul: @@AudioMasterclass lmao, stupendous! You’re doing a lovely job of completely ignoring the artist’s intention behind the work, and it’s hilarious to watch/read! 🤣👍
@AudioMasterclass replies to @THarSul: I'm pleased you find this amusing. If the artist had demanded 'Make my clarinet dance like a demented frog with a substance abuse problem' then yes, their intention has been captured perfectly.
@cauacrez-d5917: I don't disagree with this perspective despite not considering it completely wrong to have the sound swaying from side to side. In my head Id like to imagine I am as close to the soloist as posible, and I believe that is why having a wide soundstage that makes you feel like you are surrounded by the orchestra to be very moving (literally hehe)
@ComputerAudiophile-ff3wd: If the engineer want us to focus on the notes coming out of the instrument. he would have used an "in-instrument mic". What I think Audiophiles like this recording is because it capture the movement of the person playing the instrument. It is NOT static, and they consider it a good thing. Technically speaking if we are to capture a "dancing performer" of an instrument we have 2x option. 1. He/She do not dance and play as static as possible. 2. The Mic dance with it, you place the microphone in the instrument, on from of their amplifier, you try to control the gain to compensate for the "movement". Now on a recording we do not want that, we want to heard the movement of the musician, it is called the human factor.
@Conserpov: An argument can be made, no doubt, that creating a recording can be a part of performative expression itself, including additional effects, whether intended or not.
A lot of unique and cherished sound styles from the vinyl era exist only due to bad recording equipment and techniques.
For example, recording jazz using modern equipment ends up sounding nothing like "classic jazz" from black-and-white cinema, so people often use special filters and tricks to make it sound "properly".
@tortysoft: Spot mics have their place, but definitely not to reproduce a 'live' experience. During lockdown orchestral recordings were transmitted with each section individually mic'ed. I loved that sound - it gave a composer's ear view of the music. Full detail of all the notes and their interrelation. Wonderful, not a 'live' reproduction of being there with just two ears, a totally different thing.
The most important thing though is for people to play and enjoy music in whatever way they can.
@tortysoft: Ha! Second row promenader ! Pa ! I'm a front row stander :-) As I said ( twice ) a real recording is a stereo pair - no spot mics at all - really close to the back of the conductor.
The curse of a mixing desk has plagued me all my life. I once was allowed in to the sound recording and mixing room at the Royal Albert Hall, while Sir Adrian Bolt was rehearsing 'The Planets'. The audio mic master - the human at the desk, first let me hear a stereo pair set at my perfect position. It was wonderful ! Perfectly reproducing what I actually used to hear standing front row and as close to center as I could get ( by queueing all day - not pushing in ). But then... he started adding spot mics, it got worse and worse - artificial dreadfulness, pulling my ears apart all over the sound stage. The killer blow was dealt when he added what he called 'atmos ' - mics at the back of the hall ! What was he trying to do - kill the sound entirely? It ended up sounding as if I was in the stalls with a tube pointing at the leader of each orchestral section. I may have cried. A hateful experience. The sound chap was really proud of his work though, as was the BBC presumably. Nothing beats attending in real life. Ambisonics get close though.
@Jeraestone replies to @tortysoft: Allegro / Vivace - Mmmm yeah this is A Frog Jumping around but I blame the Sound Engineer for not Softening the Playing especially as it was being Paired/ Juxtaposed with the Oboe Always a Tad more Menacing than the Demented Frenetic Sound from the Clarinet done to a Crisp.in the High Register ⚖️😵💫👍🔩🫣🔱
@Hammondfreak: The Hammond Organ is my thing and the inventor, Laurens Hammond, hated the use of the Leslie Speaker with his wonderful instrument. He thought it should be pure and unadulterated and did not get on with Don Leslie and his spinning device "ruining" the sound of the Hammond. So, as you must know, when they are put together the sound is magnificent, theatrical and thrilling. Innovation is key to producing new and unusual sounds to enhance our musical experience and it is the same with the orchestra and all forms of music. You do not need an axiom, just your ears and your appreciation.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @Hammondfreak: A fun link for comment readers - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jSH73-4gMs&ab_channel=hans1970
@MissKarenB: What I find funny is how many audiophiles claim to be sound experts and claim to be able to hear a pin drop at 100 ft but are tone deft (and yes I've known a number of them) . 🤣🤣
@MrSquishedsquashed: Ah yes, the nausea inducing AI sockpuppet you've set up to disengenously push the opinions you wish those who disagree with you held, termed exactly as you'd like them for convinience really drives your point home and doesn't detract from the video at all.
You are worse than the most stereotypical of the Audiophiles insisting your subjective response to something has greater merit than anyone elses exactly as they do.
Funny that if you make up your own axioms and set your own goals for a recording you had nothing to do with, a subjective quality you disagree with can suddenly magically become a definite flaw by those standards.
And you can sit there, using AI products built on the theft of millions of peoples creative works to avoid the cost of making a visually interesting video while delivering nothing more than opinions.
If your course are similar in quality to your videos, definitely seems like something to avoid at all costs.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @MrSquishedsquashed: Thank you for your insights. If you would like to clarify further please feel free.
@CanoeBoi: Comparing the sound movement of a clarinet and a violin is wrong in itself. Violins shoots quite large compared to the very focused sound coming from the clarinet's bell.
Of course both of them will sound much different when moving, violin being more subtle and the clarinet much more obivous. Have someone play the clarinet right in front of you and ask them to move around when they play and do the same with a violin player and maybe you'll catch what I'm saying. I don't think this is a mistake; it would mean the audio engineer can't even use PAN correctly or choose his mics correctly.
@chrischaf: @2:42 Literally listening to this while sitting on my couch 12 feet from my speakers, in a room with bare plaster walls lol 😅
@davidcattin7006: Over my head. If you're this picky it must be awful hard to just enjoy the music.
@youngroyalty7991: That Final Axiom you presented is precisely correct. (Which means you're also wrong lol)
Well done. Good video, great response.
@richardlynneweisgerber2552: I had my Kali Audio IN-8 pair about three feet behind me in a few feet apart, and I did notice this wandering Clarinet, but I couldn't put my finger on what to label it, until you said it, weird.
@Raselix: This is just a really weird gotcha lmfao
Audiophiles get to the extreme of course but going the opposite extreme to get them in a gotcha makes you just as out of touch.
Oh god trying to invoke math in a subjective debate. I should have realized this was just rage bait for views. You're welcome for the engagement though.
@ping-34: I understand where you're coming from regarding "to each their own", but there's nothing specified that a recording should be of concert hall experience is there. Art is art, and every artist's (sound director in this case) interpretation should be respected. I am sure as they have been doing recordings for forever that they know about the movement thing, so this is most likely them leaning to it as a artistic direction rather than it being a defect.
Edited: The first line in Evil Penguin Classic's YouTube channel's description even said "Yes, we record classical music, but not in any classic sense." and also "Most labels are out there to acquire a standard catalogue of (some type or era of) art music, but we focus on the persons behind the record. " so this is definitely a creative thing and I don't think you should call it a problem. If you dislike it, then that's fine - but it's not a problem if the artist doesn't think it is one.
@mousqy: not logitech... dem personal attack
@AnomalousVixel: I watched the first video in full. I can't watch this one in full. All I hear is pinnacle self-righteous "I'm right, you're wrong, even in a subjective context" arrogance dripping out of every word, and bringing in an AI-gen bot to read some shit off a wiki page just made it more insufferable. This whole thing is just rage-bait to me. Wanna nitpick spatial characteristics? How about let's put the screws to everyone completely neglecting the spatial engineering of video game audio.
Gear-nitpicking audiophiles spending more money on perfecting the electrical and acoustic properties of their listening setup than on the rest of their life combined are missing key points - in that we agree and are friends. But you are using an incredibly flawed example and the idea that this is all there is to being an audiophile, or that there is no other kind of audiophile who has the right to call themselves such, is disgusting and reeks of the same pointless, point-dodging, goalpost-dancing gatekeeping as Queer Twitter discourse nitpicking what it means to be "Lesbian".
@AudioMasterclass replies to @AnomalousVixel: You should probably calm down.
@joekjr2: Although I enjoyed Roeland Hendrikx's performance very much, I agree that the recording is wrong and would not like to hear close stereo mikes used for soloists become a fad or trend.
For you, does the Hendrikx recording also make the soloist sound too large on the stero soundstage, like he's as wide as the orchestra?
Could multiple microphones be used to obtain a good mono mix of a moving performner, or would that introduce phase changes?
@Puntosmx: For the true concert hall experience, we would need two dozen speakers to blast against a wall and have the sound rebound on it to the listener.
Sooooooo......
@chrimony: Headphones, I still don't notice it, even after you point it out. Even did a left/right speaker test video on YouTube, no problem. Maybe I'm just a potato, but I still enjoyed the music :D
@AudioMasterclass replies to @chrimony: Don't worry that you're a potato. You might be a King Edward.