Audiophiles - What if you could have pure perfect analogue sound?
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Monday August 21, 2023
David Mellor
David Mellor is CEO and Course Director of Audio Masterclass. David has designed courses in audio education and training since 1986 and is the publisher and principal writer of Adventures In Audio.
And what is lacking cannot possibly be counted"
@donjohnstone3707: "Pure Perfect Analogue Sound" would be a new way for audio and music companies to get even more money out of the analogue obsessed crowd, without having to improve on or match the sound quality of high res digital. The analogue enthusiasts will just assume it must sound better because it is AAA.
@MrSlipstreem: I deliberately went out of my way to source the specific version of the Denon AVR I wanted with DAB/DAB+ instead of FM radio. I was already aware of how awful DAB radio sounded, but at least a strategically located omni-directional outdoor antenna gives me access to over 100 channels of awfulness instead of the 8 or so channels of FM stereo mediocrity I could have had. It's a shame that DAB+ has been equally as abused as the original DAB format in terms of strangled bitrate as it has the potential to be so much better.
@johnchildress8707: the perfect analogue format is 'live music'
@johnchildress8707: I loved my 8-track tape deck in 1964 Pontiac Lemans!
@andrewpetley7008: you will need your magical pure and perfect analogue stuff at the front and back of any system since sound is analogue and needs to converted to and from digits, so we all listen to analogue in the end (and beginning !)
@Mikexception: I have no trust to digitaly converted, sometime remastered recordings which are sounding for me too different than original. Compairing the same I had some too much disappointments usualy in favour of original oldest analog versions. But admit that some digital new editions are mind blowing too I do not experience noticeably noise ( only if I desire to listen it) and I accept barely noticed cracks of LPs. I do not care for technical measurements and data which do not make me changes while I am listening.
@fredashay: I think the perfect analog format ever devised was back in the 90s when they recorded audio on the video tracks of VHS tapes using a special gizmo to superimpose an audio signal on a video signal. The processor to do that never took off. I think the "audiophiles" shunned it as "blasphemy" (DAC just came to market and we all know what happened there). And for those of us who understood how digital works (retired software developer here) and knew the benefits of digital over analog, didn't see the point.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @fredashay: Like the Sony F1, except it was Betamax (of course). It was a fantastic thing in its day.
@fredashay replies to @fredashay: @@AudioMasterclass I forget what it was called, but that could be it. If it generates/receives an NTSC signal (or whatever you use over there. PAL? SECAM?), it really shouldn't matter what type of video deck you use (VHS, Betamax, U-Matic, etc.)
@AudioMasterclass replies to @fredashay: The idea is to make a digital audio signal look like a video signal so the video deck doesn't notice the difference. There is the issue of the video dropout compensator, but that was disabled in decks dedicated to digital audio.
@joedeegan3870: Any audiophiles listen to recordings of Symphony Orchestras ?
@Mikexception replies to @joedeegan3870: They say that also choir is impossible to be heard with enjoyment.
@simonzinc-trumpetharris852: Get a CD player!
@Tyco072: At 1:42 I died laughing when the vinyl noise came! Your sarcasm is really TOP class. The audiophiles and the nostalgic people for analog are not looking for the perfect analog sound. As I wrote in a comment in another video, if an analog format was perfect, or nearly perfect, like the FM modulation can do (the VHS or Betamax Hi-Fi was already almost identical to CD), they would not like it. The perfect analog sound would be too "cold", without noise, without wow&flutter, distortion, dropouts, without any non-uniformities and with neutral EQ... It would sound actually identical to the digital sound.
@Mikexception replies to @Tyco072: The problem is that all that "unfortunate" mess alows listener to judge if the reproduction is not EQ wrong . Which without it is not possible to judge. Because it is the only existing sound in reproduction which is untouched by long chain of engineering - raw and pure, produced only by circuitry, tape or needle. It is like keeping on monitor screen some small surface without picture always supposed to be white used for permanent controll of white balance,. One may call it damage of picture for other it is valuable comparison for possible EQ and speaker judgement and positioning adjustments. .
@bob1505: Bring back shellac 78's. Think of how much that could be achieved with modern materials science. And new formulations of hard wax would provide vastly superior but equally easily damaged cylinders. Think of the economic possibilities. Supply today's hipsters with a flawed and less convenient media. If you like vinyl, you'll love shellac and wax! Argue endlessly about scratch, clicks and pops adding to the presentation. It is back to basics listen to sound borne of bugs. Get closer to mother earth and escape petroleum ridden CDs and LPs. Greta Thunburg would approve.
@richh650: You have some of the best and deepest videos on YT. Excellent!
@jaredkilgore7194: Perfect analog is a perfect oxymoron. đ
@Mikexception replies to @jaredkilgore7194: You listen to it 16 hours a day except sleeping. How much is it not perfect?
@KeatingJosh: I've come to the point where I think that 16/44.1 cd quality is more than enough for playback with a decent dac.. recording is different.. also this is hilarious.. "audiophiles" crack me up.. luckily I don't have more money than sense
@frankgeeraerts6243: In a modern digitalized world where food is processed , ..........;ands the outcome are the deseases like mentalhealth problems, chronic deseases, allergies and worse......
The same is with musc reroduction...............processed , sliced and reconstructed >sold as being better than the real thing .............sorry about not experiencing the emotions of the real thing and having that listening fatigue or nasty headache after listening to that perfect and expensive Hi-end ......if it woud be my wife causing these inconveniences I would divorce.........after living for years a PERFECT mariage .............
@NewGoldStandard: As far as I know, you have a great sense of humor.
@natetete1379: Pure perfect analog would be a guitar. And I suck at guitar. it's pure and still sounds terrible. outside of the mechanical fun of other formats. Digital is obviously the way to go.
@Mikexception replies to @natetete1379: Beauty of guitar sounding depends on brand and player.
@Balikon: Why must we argue about "digital vs. analogue (aka vinyl/ tape / r2r / 8track / fm radio / whatever)" over and over again? Every side tries to find new ultimate arguements to persuade the other side. This is really exhausting in any way: producing or consuming.
No, we do not need to! How about this: Everyone hears the music the way he wants without beeing criticed from others. In return, everyone let any other poeple hear their music the way they like without criticizing them. It is so easy.
The best thing about it: We could transfer this principle to live in general . What a peaceful world we could get.
@dangerzone007: The reasons vinyl sounds so good is because generally speaking it was much better mastered. Also cartridges introduce a pleasant second harmonic distortion at higher frequencies.
@Mikexception replies to @dangerzone007: Unpleasant things are bad and pleasant are for people good!! Opposite judgement suppose to be good supported. I trust more analog sopranos. Digital sampling at 12 and more kHz is less than 4 pulses for complete sinus - it cannot present non sinus shape because it transformed by fiilters to one possible shape - sinus. Their variety is limited and that is why many recall distortions to explain why analog is more vibrant.
@dangerzone007: You don't need a new analogue format. You just need to record in high-definition such as 192/24 and have a very accurate reconstruction filter. Maybe something like HQ player could do that. You could have controls for how analogue you want it to sound.
@dangerzone007: Get yourself a good tuner and a reasonably good audio interface and you have hours of recordings to keep you happy.
@dangerzone007: Just get some MBL 101 X-treme because and be happy.
@cinemaipswich4636: It's a dream. Having a SSL mixing board, with a 32 track tape deck, a rack full of hardware effects and microphones has a whole chain of noise. Recording studios who have this gear, spend $150,000 a year to keep it working, for it is all inherently buggy and noisy. Then they master it all down to a digital file.
@Stelios.Posantzis: The main case for analogue audio is simple:
a) analogue audio requires a very simple recording/replay mechanism which at the same time is a product of highly sophisticated engineering i.e. it will still work with rudimentary equipment but will work superbly with superb equipment - this is what is its claim to success
b) analogue audio storage media are physical, some longer living some less so, some more fragile some less so, but from all of them, on the whole, the most physical of them, vinyl records, are made to outlast us all and the replay devices they are intended for still work: try playing a vinyl record from the 80s on a decent budget deck from 80s - it will still work as it did then (40 years ago). Now try that with a cd from the 90s (30 years ago) - that's right, the cd player no longer works: what happened to the "forever" in "CD: perfect sound forever"? Analogue media are more long lasting than digital same way clay tablets and carved stones were more resilient than papyri and parchments.
2:26 That's not the point: FM radio uses a huge infrastructure, there are hundreds of millions of FM radio reception devices out there worldwide replacing which will just cost billions and last, but not least, it works brilliantly at what it does employing a fairly simple but sophisticated technology that CAN be replicated by the enthusiast/hobyist should the need ever arise (as with ANY analogue radio format - try that with digital).
2:39 DAB is shit, it's a shitty format that has been rammed down consumer throats (because, let's face it, consumers just like to consume, especially anything labelled as "new" and "better") who know too little about it (or care too little about it) to make an informed decision. If you have a similar marketing campaign now saying that DAB II is better, they'll switch to DAB II. If you repeat that in a couple of years with DAB III, they'll happily switch to DAB III just as they do with their mobile phones.
3:12 Feel free to make a video about as long as you slate is as badly as you just did for DAB. Stick to FM - it's better and you can have a superb tuner for not much money.
3:18 Maybe not but keep an eye on OMA - you never know. Regarding casette or reel-to-reel decks, the problem is not the unavailability of decks (there's plenty second hand ones to go around), it's the unavailability of new blank tapes.
3:37 You don't need any of that. No consumer ever needed such extravagant devices just to listen to music - unless you are FBI or NASA or some similar scientific laboratory or just a recording engineer. What would you need such highly performing audio gear today anyway? Most of today's music is utter crap.
I kind of lost you after 11:00...
@donjohnstone3707 replies to @Stelios.Posantzis: The positives in favour of analogue audio, that you have outlined, apply just as much and even more to digital audio on CD's (as long as working CD players are available, which they definitely are). The only difference being that the sound information in the grooves of vinyl records and audio signals on magnetic tape, progressively wear down and the sound quality deteriorates everytime it is played or not stored and cleaned properly. The claim that CD's are "perfect sound forever", derives from the fact that perfect copies of the digital data from one digital source to another remain perfect, if they are copied correctly. That is not the case for analogue formats, which lose aspects of sound quality each time they are copied, as explained on the video. PS. Enjoyment of recorded music is a personal choice both in the equipment used and the format it is sourced from.
@Stelios.Posantzis replies to @Stelios.Posantzis: @@donjohnstone3707 Good point about perfect digital copies. I had forgotten about that. In theory, perfect analogue copies can be made for vinyl disks provided the negative exists, but one would argue that the original is on analogue tape which cannot be copied without deterioration. Perfect copying from analogue tape is not possible. Maybe if direct mastering to disk was made, then one could claim perfect analogue copying (from the disc negative) is possible, up to a number of copies.
Regarding point a) though, isn't analogue overall a simpler technology than digital? For starters, digital require circuit integration on a microscopic scale, which analogue does not. In fact, you could even implement analogue record/play chain with discrete components as antiquated as valves or, in an extreme case, magnetic amplifiers.
I agree on the point about enjoyment being a personal choice.
@Stelios.Posantzis: 1:42 Correct - same difference between a home cooked meal and a take away.
@julianmorrisco: Two words. Business case.
As in, how big is the market for this folly and whoâs going to do the R&D? Maybe there are enough âaudiophilesâ to pay for the dev and infrastructure. I doubt it, thoâ.
@julianmorrisco replies to @julianmorrisco: NOTE: I remembered the problem of a lack of nuance in comments on social media. Yes, I know our man here is being whimsical, even sarcastic.
@dougg1075: Who cares , let folks have their hobbies. Some folks search for the perfect writing pen. Who cares
@davidfromamerica1871: âSonic Enchantmentâ đđ
@thinkIndependent2024: DSD direct!!! of course playback extension 50k
@chaoticsystem2211: Isn't the universe quantized anyway? So technically, even analogue is digital... And digital is analogue extremism.
@Project851: So maybe if you had the ultimate analogue recording stored on ultimate mastertape, and then skipped the entire distribution chain and transmitted the master recording once on FM with extreme quality, and people had to have an equal extreme receiver and a recorder with metal tape at home. Maybe?
@brightertomorrow9514: I love this video! Thank you. I like both digital and analogue. Though for some of my favorite albums I prefer to have a vinyl copy as well as the hi-res digital file. To me I am not offended if digital is transferred to vinyl. I am mostly offended by low quality digital file formats. I originally went back to vinyl years ago due to lack of Hi-Res audio files available for many of my favorite artist. Though now days this has finally been changing. I cannot stand wireless streaming that is for sure. I like either the analogue with physical connections or digital with physical plugs to the speakers whenever possible.
I am in the market for quality speakers now as a matter of fact. There are so many to choose from. Any suggestions on what to look for? Or what brands get it right?
After all, what good is having the perfect analogue or perfect digital copy if the speakers do not reproduce all the highs, mids and lows? lol
@imqqmi: I was wondering if audio could be stored as vectors or mathematical approximations or curves and straight lines. To play the audio it must be converted to pcm or dsd, and it can be converted to any bitrate and bit depth that a device supports. One can construct analogue mathematical blocks that calculate these vectors in the analogue domain, then use an adc to capture these approximations and put it into a digital file. DSD is pretty close but can't do steep transients very well. Vectors can do it easily.
As playback devices continue to improve, the vector audio can then just be rendered with improved quality. It's a bit like pal/ntsc resolution remastered series recorded on 16mm film. The source material has a much higher resolution compared to pal/ntsc, hence hd remasters are possible. All series recorded digitally directly can't be easily upscaled (though AI upscaling is constantly improving, you're still being lied to as more detail is artificially created).
@billa5289: I suspect that you need to experience a synergistic pure analog system. Once dialed in, an all analog system with no silicon and no ribbon cables in the signal path can be a wonderful thing to experience when built right. It's absolutely true that this is a rare experience, and the source quality is key. It won't last forever, but the majic is real.
@petie40: There was a vinyl record format with noise reduction equalization that was released toward the end of the vinyl format before CD players took over the market, the noise reduction was for pops, clicks and noise inherent in the vinyl disc and a special decoder was needed to hear the encoded vinyl record, it worked as well as Dolby did for tapes. This encoded vinyl format was reviewed on "Techmoan" YouTube Channel.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @petie40: I'm guessing dbx (all lower case). I hated dbx for cassettes but I imagine it would work better with vinyl. The market didn't take to it though, which sometimes does happen even with good formats - Betamax and DAT for instance. DM
@maidsandmuses: It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. What we need is a different attitude towards both the essence of music and dynamic range by those who hold the purse strings in the music industry.
@mypetdrgn: The next great leap in audio will be when we connect our brain to a computer with access to the part of our brain used to understand sound as music. Weâll be able to be triggered directly as well as ârecordâ audio back into the world from our brain to âtriggerâ other brains
@Douglas_Blake_579: Near perfect analog audio was achieved some time ago using photo-optics and movie film. But even then I would stay with digital for the massive and convenient storage of a hard drive and small computer.
@ricktotty2283: In the not too distant future you will get your wish. Analog electronics are making a comeback. They donât have to count 0 to 1.
@MarcelNL: I really don't like FM radio because of the V-shaped equalizer settings that they always use.
Just broadcast it neutral!
@johngault-9597: Why do you remind me of Paul McCartney? Not just facial appearance but speaking voice too.. huge Beatles fan so please take it as a compliment...cheers
@nicc5122: BBC national "analogue" FM is distributed using NICAM since the 1990's and prior to that it was a propietary PCM, so it's not end to end analogue, and if they play a CD...... Plus live concerts (Radio 3) from venues use digital (dial up) feeds because analogue leased lines are expensive. Your 'local' station is usually piped from the London HQ of Bauer or Global, digitally of course.
@zizendorf: Audio enthusiasts can be quite an irrational bunch - including me. So, let me try to be rational. This whole 'discussion' (debate? argument?) is a moot point! For starters all of the music we're listening to is just a reproduction of a prior performance, time-stamped, dated in the past. It's just an artificial recreation. No matter how I tweak my kit, no matter the highest quality of performance and recording, I can't get my living room/listening room to recreate a symphony hall, nor a nightclub, or stadium PA system. It doesn't matter if my playback is sourced digitally or in analogue (or analog), besides all the digital gets converted to analogue. Whether I'm playing my best recorded and produced CD's or vinyl, it doesn't matter. There are poor versions of both, good versions of both, and great versions of both. Just received my first DeutscheGrammophon Original Source version Beethoven's 7th symphony. It's absolutely amazing, especially so as a vinyl rendition. Playback is great: dynamic range, soundstage, instrument separation, detail, and intricacies. And, here's the irrational part, it came wrapped in a nice bow with that "analogue warmth". Hah! Enjoy your music!
@taidee: Well "see you soon" when we hear more of how this perfect analog music delivery will happen đ
@zatzen: in the end, perfect analogue will probably sound just like digital, and will be rejected by vinyl enthusiasts because there is no distortion
@tonyfrench1081: Yawn.
@szeredaiakos: Well AFAIK part is happening. There are a number of companies developing a vinyl process involving laser cut stampers, which can, according to my calculations, reach CD quality. Yes, I did my own estimates, didn't believe a single word of their PR material. But, That is impressive for vinyl. It may dip into acceptable level of quality for the more pragmatic of music lovers.
Please note, perfect vinyl on the outer groove has about 2 times the maximum theoretical information density of CD quality. Thats roughly 17bits at 44.1kHz, or 16/88.2. (These numbers are based on actual molecular width of the vinyl polymers with rectangular stacking, disregarding the stylus). Obviously, it is not even in the same galaxy as 24/96 high-res, but, arguably, 24/96 is massive overkill.
@rabit818: The only place you can hear perfect analog is in a concert hall, not miked (obviously) and saved in your memory bank.
@northsurrey: I'm not sure you can call FM radio analogue. Â The end to end system is mostly digital with all playout and sound desks in the BBC and most non-BBC radio being digital. These feed digital routers, which in turn feed digital distribution systems. Only the modulation done in the FM transmitters and demodulation in the listeners' receivers are "analogue".
The BBC's distribution system has been digital since the early 70s. Unknowingly, BBC Radio is likely to be the first digital audio most people ever heard (over a certain age!) in the UK. The original system was 32KHz PCM followed by Nicam in the late 80s. Both were non-lossy formats, although Nicam stretched that definition a bit as it used 10 bits shifted over the dynamic range of the audio.
Arguably, back in 70s the best quality music it was possible to hear were live concerts on Radio 3. These were unprocessed and analogue from the source to the continuity suite in BH, then digital to the main transmitters. Later, digital lines were used from the venue, firstly via the Sony PCM-F1 system and later on BT supplied digital lines and uplinks. If you had a good tuner getting a good signal then the quality was stunning. When sitting in the studio and comparing the received audio to a high quality receiver, the only difference was some noise inherent in the FM multiplex system. FM in its unprocessed native form is very good but its potential as a high quality medium is now rarely fulfilled due to audio processing.
@RichardNeep-gg1rv: Another thing to consider for those who are inherently opposed to digital audio is the connection between the cochlea in the human inner ear and the auditory cortex of the brain where sound is perceived.
They are joined by nerves, which transmit their information by action potentials, an electrical signal which is basically âonâ or âoffâ and therefore binary. Massively parallel of course, there are an estimated 50,000 nerves (data lines) per side.
So we could consider the human cochlea as the ultimate ADC and the last stage of all hearing digital!
@misstakenot9582 replies to @RichardNeep-gg1rv: Going back a few stages, analogue tape works by the orientation of magnetic domains. North or South - nothing between. So - digital. đ
@6643bear: Hi very interesting video, I totally agree that dab in the the Uk not that great transmitting in mp2, when listening on dab during lift in conditions ie large high pressure areas I can pick up dab+ from the continent they transmit dab+ aac in high bit rates up to 100kbits but in this country itâs only max 40kbits. Classic Fm is going dab+ end of the year I just hope itâs better than 40kbits . In the states they weâre thinking using Mondial digital format on Mw Am buts it seems that it died. Regards mark
@6643bear replies to @6643bear: Thanks for that , I do very much enjoy your technical content , interesting concept on your take on digital and analogue formats, I like both recently bought rega planner 3 to complement my Rotel A11 t11 cd 11 including ifi zen dac v2 set up. I find my deck audio itâs not far off cd quality. Kind regards mark
@DID70Sworkedoutforyou: i have to say that i had the luck of having a family that enjoyed a lot hearing music ,with the years some of them knowing that i was very interested in music and music components they ofered me their systems because they were almost never working and i have to say that i have a very good system from pioneer 76 catalog and in the 90´s i wanted a new more modern system in Black ,i bought three diferent systems from diferent brands ended up keeping again a Pioneer high-end system that works perfect today but i have to admit that nothing that i bought top´s the 76 pioneer system that was ofered by my father when buying a new extremelly expensive system from REVOX/Studer which is also mine today, i think at the time everything was built to last and prove their higher quality against other brands , and in my opinion digital is just a diferent path to analog sound come to our ears, which i don´t like much the sound of compact disc ,some of them but other digital sources are already very good since the late 80´s like the DAT which was and is a very expensive format but quality wise i even compared it to the sound of reel to reel decks, but if to choose i still prefer Reel decks, analog ones
@asplmn replies to @DID70Sworkedoutforyou: Which Pioneer gear are you speaking of?
@gaz312: There is no such thing as perfect sound.
Even in the room can interfere with it.
Just make something that sounds good and enjoy the music.
@atomas59: As always, you crack me up! Thank for laughter. Keep up your "great work". Digital wasn't made for such imperfect world. People love distortion and background noise...)))
@peanutbutterjellyjam2179: I would think that in order to get a perfect analog response - without actual analog - one would need to use a quantum computer.
@ammej768: So my initials are PAF ( Perfect Audio Format) And I used to sell HiFi ( what a coincidence) đ
@spacemissing: The best I can come up with is capacitive cylinders,
which in operation would be much like CED video discs.
Obviously impractical!
@Simbosan: Perfect Analog Format spelled Thumbdrive
@davidcarr2216: Pure, perfect, analogue recording and reproduction exists, we've had it for over 40 years - it's called digital audio. The weakest links being the microphones and the speakers.
@cptsalek: These discussions tend to be religious from both ends of the spectrum, getting into them is just a waste of time.
I enjoy both analogue and digital. Analogue not only because of nostalgia, but because of the tactile experience, which involves not only getting Vinyls out of their sleeves but threading an open reel every once in a while.
My 70th Sony Amp delivers a lively and energetic soundscape, while my Marantz fills the room with a highly detailed multi channel sound when playing back BD Audio...
@razisn: This has already been invented. It is called 'LaserDisc'.... Has been very successful..
@AudioMasterclass replies to @razisn: You may be right here, or at least on the right lines. Comment readers might like to know that discs could have digital or analogue audio. In the UK a disc with analogue audio would be 'LaserVision'. I've never heard this other than at exhibitions and a long time ago. I suspect the audio quality may be less than perfect due to compatibility issues with the video signal. However if such a disc could be audio-only then I would imagine the potential audio quality could be very high. DM
@luedriver: it might not be 24-bit equivalent but vhs hifi analog audio is almost as good as cd, afaik and is cheap and easy to record and listen back from
@AudioMasterclass replies to @luedriver: VHS Hi-Fi was definitely a good thing in its day but it isn't often pointed out that it needed strong noise reduction to work and couldn't be considered the equivalent of CD quality. DM
@fentonfun: VHS Hi-Fi is analog and very good.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @fentonfun: VHS Hi-Fi was definitely a good thing in its day but it isn't often pointed out that it needed strong noise reduction to work and couldn't be considered the equivalent of CD quality. DM
@scottwolf8633: Humans have a preference for the euphony of tape saturation distortion, including the master tape, cut into acetate and then stamped into pvc. Just a philosophical question; How can the vastly imperfect H. sapiens sapiens create anything, "Perfect"?
@paulstubbs7678: To me Analogue is Vinyl, why, because it is the only format where new quality equipment and media is been created.
Cassette is basically dead, it seems anyone wanting to make a 'tape machine' (they are not HiFi) does not even think of making a transport, they just go shopping for what junk is still being peddled in the back block of... China.
Then there is tape, only the basic 'type 1' tapes are made - if you want anything better then it's whatever stocks are out there buried in the back of some all but forgotten warehouse.
On the otherhand, I'd like to see more analogue mixing/mastering - get us as far as possible away from the loudness wars, however I'll take my copy in digital.
Digital as a format does not bother me al all, However I hate these DAW's, most seem to be only used to murder the music. As for the old CD labels AAD ADD etc, I'd like a DAD. PSaudio were recording in DSD, then, because digitally directly manipulating DSD is extremely hard (impossible?) they were using an old analogue desk.
Oh, and 'sleeve art', don't care at all, to me it's just marketing candy, to suck you in. Maybe this is from my very bad experiences with various music playing software that 'magically' races off to download the album are - and gets it all very wrong, even trying to break apart a group of tracks from a CD as it thought it knew better and these are Not from the same source CD/LP, grouping some tracks off separately with different album art - What an absolute mess. I'm over it, give us a clean text based list, one that I can easily edit.
But finally there is the problem of a lot of people's ears these days NOT been tuned to quality, but rather crap. as in they are quite happy listening to audio via the speaker of their mobile phone - or if lucky a Bluetooth speaker, both with extremely processed sound to try an ilk out any sore of usable (ha) sound from the crappy driver & useless amps. (I mean, what does one expect when limited to a 5V power supply!)
@geoff37s38: Even âperfectâ analog recordings will be played through loudspeakers that are far from perfect. Then we add on problems with room acoustics. These issues will completely swamp and mask any advantages in âpure analogâ.
@xprcloud: your class-AB amp chops up your audio in to 2 halves, a more horrible way than digital ever does.(digital doesn't chop, but cant explain in short here).
new analog 30IPS on metal tape reel to reel tape using 2 heads per channel where 1 head gap optimized for low freq, and the other head optimized for high freq, no Dolby!!, GaAs based low noise playback tape head pre-pre-amps.
Seriously digital is the perfect analog.
@petedenton9434: I have access to the perfect analogue format 3 or 4 times every week. As a performing, acoustic musician it's called participating in rehearsal and performance ;)
@schubertuk replies to @petedenton9434: Probably the only sensible answer (I attend live performances for the same reason). If it's not live - I prefer a good quality digital recording.
@tactileslut: What I hear is that no matter how much effort I've put into preserving a recording, some jack wad's AI will content match it to a 16kbps rip from Spotify and sue my work out of existence.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @tactileslut: I once got copyright claimed on sine wave tones I'd included in my video. It got thrown out. DM
@chinmeysway: Couldnât really get into listing to all this but yeah perfect analog is an interesting paradox by way of say zero distortion as thatâs why digital is so sterile regarding recording processes.
@jamespeters2859: Youâre TOTALLY WRONG about there not having been a new vinyl lathe built
The T560 is made in Germany has been for the last decade it attaches to a Technics 1200. Is utterly superb, itâs used by numerous studios and artists.
Get ya facts right ya pompous know it all!
@AudioMasterclass replies to @jamespeters2859: I've always aspired to be a pompous know it all and now apparently I've achieved this status. Also, apparently, you didn't hear me when I said "AFAIK" in the video. Oh well. The T560 looks interesting. I suspect it wouldn't compete with a Neumann but I may explore what creative purposes people have put it to. Info at https://www.vinylrecorder.com/index-e.html DM
@jamespeters2859 replies to @jamespeters2859: @@AudioMasterclass AFAIK is no excuse. Do your research first.
Thereâs a few YouTube videos showing this device in action. It cuts perfect dub plates and masters etc. Invented by a German audio genius whom could teach you a thing or two. And unlike most German tech this is relatively simple to operate and affordable. 100âs of studios have this. đ It wasnât built to compete with anything. It was built to do a job which it achieves admirably.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @jamespeters2859: â@@jamespeters2859 I have indeed done my research on lathes built for bulk record manufacture and still AFAIK there has been none made since the 1980s. If anyone has further knowledge on this I would be pleased to hear of it. Notice how I'm being polite. Calling me names - 'pompous know it all' - says more about you than it does about me. DM
@jamespeters2859 replies to @jamespeters2859: @@AudioMasterclass Wrong again! Your concern over the word pompous, of which you are and even admit to it, yet scold someone for pointing it out, accusing them of calling you names, says nothing about me, but everything about your big phat ego and inflated opinion of yourself. Duh!
Were I to call you a name, itâd likely rhyme with the word âpuntâ. âŚNow as Father Ted wouldâve said. Fek off!
Sort your ego out bud, eat some humble pie and learn how to deal with people correct, when theyâre in the right.
You didnât know about that German lathe which loads of cutting edge studies are using. âŚCutting edge, good one eh.
There are many people in the U.K. which know A LOT more than yourself about specialised subjects within the expansive audio world.
P.S You didnât do your research, for if you had youâve known about that vinyl lathe which is used for record manufacturing of any quantity. And the German professor like guy whom makes them, knows more about that specialised subject than you ever will. Thatâs his profession.
Youâre a Jack of all trades master of none. âŚDefinitely a know it all âpuntâ is applicable to you.
What bothers your ego is you didnât find this, youâve not known about this, 100âs have been made dozens of studios are using this in the U.K.
@namegoeshere2903: Life is too short to chase perfection. Just enjoy the music.
@quantumastrologer5599 replies to @namegoeshere2903: Aye, i had this whole speech about some great artist being not as 'talented' or trained in the art the were pursuing, yet their talent at expressing emotions or evoking images or stuff like that made more than up for it.
If music works for you it works for you. No matter the technical complexities.
@writenamehere0000 replies to @namegoeshere2903: Just like gold chasers. Oh, only one more year and I quit. In a search for the biggest nugget.
@EgoShredder replies to @namegoeshere2903: That's a tricky one. On the one hand there are those rare people that devote their whole existence, to creating the absolute best music they can and sometimes their music lives on for centuries held in high regard. Then there are those who aim for mediocrity and short term fame, and their music tends to be quickly forgotten within a few years or a couple of decades if lucky.
@DID70Sworkedoutforyou replies to @namegoeshere2903: @@writenamehere0000 To all of them ,just buy a equalizer and one can get a good sound from what one has at home, not thinking how much more thousands of dollars one will spend in a new recent speaker model, to those who say that equalization changes the way music was intended to be heard ,buying new speakers thinking they are better also does that but much more expensive and one can learn how to use a equalizer , as they do in every recording studio in the world in a diferent path of the recording process
@flash4973 replies to @namegoeshere2903: we can do both
@CraigPMiller: Pure analog is a contradiction in terms. Its nature is based in distortion. đđ§
@phillipkelly736: It doesn't exist
@AudioMasterclass replies to @phillipkelly736: Yet. DM
@marxman00: Hard Drive Analogue ?.... Or Read music script , the most pure analogue music ever!........ dem digital beaches is hot..(for the time of year)
@ManoelNunesOSan: The answer is DSD. It is stored as bits, but since the sampling rate is extremely high and what defines the amplitude of the signal is density of those bits in time, it sounds like analog, but with the precision of digital. Somewhat like grain in a magnetic tape.
@Vor-tech-studios replies to @ManoelNunesOSan: I thought the same thing, where would it sit in this conversation..? With the storage capacity and speeds we have now there is no problem there. All we need is for some company to manufacture a basic standalone multi track recorder so it can be available to studios and audio engineers... please!
@Maver1ck911 replies to @ManoelNunesOSan: â@@Vor-tech-studiosdsd is huge. Recording native DSD is the only way this argument holds water. Upsampling PCM to DSD is snake oil and a waste of hardware
@Vor-tech-studios replies to @ManoelNunesOSan: @@Maver1ck911 yah, I love doing live take recordings, I am heading towards just getting a stereo DSD recorder and some mastering quality Reel to reel and mixing directly into both simultaneously...
@ronschauer839: If I am not mistaken (and I very well could be) early versions of 12" video discs were actually recorded in an analog fashion using PCM (pulse code modulation) or capacitive modulation (CAV/LaserDisk) but don't quote me on that.
They could host full sized album art because of their 12" size for that "vinyl" album feeling.
And because the medium is capable enough for video reproduction it should be FAR more than capable for ultra high end audio reproduction.
Audiophiles could revel in the care and cleaning of the disks, the handling and storage, and the very high/exclusive price of both the media and the players.
However, I for one would not be in the market for such a thing at any price.
--------
Many, many moons ago I worked in a major brand's tape duplicating facility (Ampex).
The pecking order in terms of quality from best to worst for our products was: "fast" open reel (15ips), "normal" open reel (7.5ips, or occasionally 3.75ips), 8 tracks (3.75ips), and cassettes (1-7/8ips) in any guise.
Dolby wasn't a thing for cassettes just yet, which placed cassettes firmly at the "throwaway" end of the audio spectrum, but that was OK for the vast majority of listeners.
Years later I gave up on 8 tracks for use in our cars when by then Dolby came to the rescue for cassettes.
However, when CDs became readily available I switched over quickly and happily.
Now it is 100% digital for our vehicles (wave, mp3, flac), and no looking back.
At home however I still maintain a decent record deck (turntable).
Frankly I only keep it to be able to play back my vinyl collection on rare occasions.
That said, I really do understand the attraction of vinyl for many people.
The nostalgia, the cost, the inconvenience, the hands-on involvement...
I get it.
And to each their own...
đ
@MichaelBeeny: So, few people care, it will never happen. If it does the price will be so high, it won't sell. Look at the price of an LP with it's far from high quality sound. What would it cost if was very high quality. But it already exists. It's called digital.
@RobertWilliams-kw5dl: Would a PWM recording at a very high sampling rate be technically analogue, surely?
@Cola.Cube.: You've been framed mate.đ¤Ł
Apparently Metallica are buying up vinyl printing plants left right and centre.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @Cola.Cube.: Here's a link for comment readers https://www.billboard.com/pro/metallica-bought-vinyl-record-pressing-plant/ DM
@jackhreha4907: You did it again. Made me poor another shot of whisky. The drink got another 3db out of my 6 generation John Baldary album It ain't easy. Oh the enjoyment! We will first start out making a device that has a chip where the actual D.N.A of a sound engineer is in it. Just think I can here you! Then switch out the chip presto we have George Martin. This is so great on so many levels. The royalties that abounds ! And the perfect analogue sound is experienced by way you hear it. A new thing that pushes the bounds of eight track and mp3. Best Regards Jack.
@SvetaAndic: I would be very interested in seeing your comments on the views presented in this video: https://youtu.be/4QeqSYIXDr4. It takes a professional to take on professional and I am not one myself.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @SvetaAndic: OK I've listened to a couple of minutes. I've often said similar myself. We are used to the sound of analogue from the many great recordings made on analogue. The sound has become part of music itself so we seek to retain that texture through nostalgia. One argument may be to say we should probably try and wean ourselves off it. The sound should be in the voice or instrument and the recording should capture that accurately. But people just like the analogue sound and I doubt if it's going away anytime soon. DM
@nikolaki: 12:56 Haha, those thoughts were rattling round my head half way through the video.
@zloboslav_: I wouldn't care for a perfect analog format if I cannot tell the difference from digital.
For me it's the opposite - the charm of analog technology is how it can "color" the sound in a pleasant way.
I care for analog when it's being used while creating the music, but I listen to the digital record in the end. And it's been great for me. :)
@jonathanroseii905 replies to @zloboslav_: You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between and analog synth and an analogue simulation of said synth in a blind test please.
@nitromcclean: To all the people who are so concerned about sound quality: What do you listen to, music or sound? I listen to music and I really enjoy a good piece of music with bad sound quality more than a bad piece of music with perfect sound quality. Yes, of course I want the best possible sound quality, but in the end it is about the music, not the sound equipment. And with all those stories from hi-fi enthusiasts and audiophiles about what they hear from their sound system, have they ever been to live performances of real musicians, who play their music without electronic amplification? Or have they ever played or heard an acoustic instrument up close? Then you know that even the best recording, played on the best sound system, sounds really different. That you like to listen to expensive equipment that you like sounding, and are willing to pay a lot of money for it, totally fine, but don't try to convince me that your sound system is much better than mine for whatever reason. For you your sound system is the best and for me my sound system is the best, we are not the same.
@writenamehere0000: Those two digital chicks at the end. LOL. Creepy just like digital format audio. _:)=))))))
@DeltaJazzUK replies to @writenamehere0000: Don't say that, the chump thinks digital chicks are better than analogue chicks!
@writenamehere0000 replies to @writenamehere0000: @@DeltaJazzUK But he hates re-masters, so its ok :)
@danender5555 replies to @writenamehere0000: Master just loves his two female look AI creatures. Both AI horse repeat exactly what he dictates, so you must understand the level of happiness ration when master's door open and wife walks in.
@richclips: I upset a friend of mine years ago when he was showing me his Accuphase Stereo tuner and singing the virtues of his perfect ends to end analog radio setup... I happened to mention that the BBC used NICAM 3 as their link between program output and all of the transmission sites.... Plus they frequently recorded LP records to PCM, Using a Sony PCM encoder and a Beta deck... I visited the radio 3 studios in the late 1908's...thanks David
@AudioMasterclass replies to @richclips: My brain skipped that but Iâm sure Iâll return to it in a future video. And the Sony PCM-F1 and its 11 microsecond delay between channels. DM
@richclips replies to @richclips: @@AudioMasterclass oh I'd forgotten that.... I also had a PCM-701 at home with a Sony SL-HF100, connected to record Hi-Fi stereo in analogue to tape and simultaneously PCM as video. The BBC 701'S were modified of course to add SP/DIF. Some lovely SL10s and EMTs too :)
@paulphilippart7395: iTS a shame speaker technology hasnt progressed that much (compared with digital exponential almost), I still think its a waste to perfect that part when loudspeakers are no where near what they should be,its been very small improvements since the very first speaker.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @paulphilippart7395: You raise a good point that Iâm sure I will include in a future video. DM
@paulphilippart7395 replies to @paulphilippart7395: @challengeclub7985 Sounds promising, very intrigued to hear what they reproduce like.
Wonder if that is the piezo type,where they use similar means to the inkjet printer,kind of scatters sound precisely,heard of that recently.
@earthoid: Remastering in the current sense of the word: "making good recordings sound worse". So painfully true! Qobuz likes to substitute my favorite albums for the latest remastered abominations. Bastards!
@AudioMasterclass replies to @earthoid: I remain optimistic that this trend will be reversed in the, hopefully, near future. DM
@marcbegine: Just go to a live classic concert in a real concert hall like the philharmonic Concert Hall in Cologne, enjoy
@AudioMasterclass replies to @marcbegine: I concur https://youtu.be/_MfA5JLivyU DM
@fredygump5578: This question reveals that true "audiophiles" are craving an experience from their youth. It's only natural, and it's perfectly fine. But the pseudoscience to justify the belief that the equipment of their youth is "better" is just silly!
@davidkclayton: We're unlikely to ever have 100% digital audio but 100% Analog audio is a thing and can be improved if the money was there.đ
@telefoneification5813 replies to @davidkclayton: What is 100% analog audio? all electronics work to the same principles, there is no such thing as purely analog audio, it does not existđ
@davidkclayton replies to @davidkclayton: @@telefoneification5813 An analog signal has infinite amplitude resolution. I hope this helps.đ
@telefoneification5813 replies to @davidkclayton: Thanks @@davidkclayton Contrary to popular belief, digital systems can provide infinite amplitude resolution if they are properly dithered. Have nice day
@kevinharrison2169: Perfect Analogue Audio = lift your your butt and go to live events, where the amps add their distortion, metres and metres of cable degrade the sound in any case, and microphones and their cables/wireless links connect to amplifiers and speakers. The best analogue audio - open air small concerts with no amplification except via the natural acousitcs of an amphitheatre, or cathedral, chapel or church with a wonderful pipe organ. Or an orchestra, quintet, or whatever blows your hair back. Perfect analogue audio means also making sure that your ears aren't messed up with, inter alia, medicines, loud noise damage, tinitus (stress induced) et cetera. And each individual has ears and a brain that processes the music differently.
Says this olde dude who has an extensive LP collection, multiple record players, pickups, tonearms. I also have a large collection of CDs and SACDs. I have not got the money for a decent "affordable" streamer. That will take a bit of time and is not high on my list of priorities.
The big thing is that I enjoy music for the sake of music. The digital domain has matured over the years and way too many idiots hang onto the past, and on top of it look down their noses at us mere "mortals." Twits!
To quote the French "Viva la diffĂŠrence."
And yes, so many of the remastered LPs are total crap ac81017. Bought a few LPs and stopped - they're absolutely crap.
Thanks for your wonderful humour David.
@DeltaJazzUK replies to @kevinharrison2169: "The digital domain has matured over the years"
How so? has 'perfect sound forever' become more perfect? are today's ones and zeroes 'better' ones and zeroes?
@kevinharrison2169 replies to @kevinharrison2169: @@DeltaJazzUK The sampling resolution and methods have improved. Unfortunately CD players have not changed much, but if high resolution sampling could be delivered to the masses at an affordable price it would be marvelous. However the biggest problem is that bad mastering, mixing and production still messes up way too many recordings.
@latheofheaven1017: I once knew a mastering engineer who worked for Decca on their classical recordings. She told me that typically there was nothing much to do with audio enhancement of the recordings, but... there were dozens, if not hundreds and sometimes thousands of edits to be done for a release. Working on her Sonic Solutions digital workstation, this could be tedious, but entirely doable. I wonder how that would be done if working on some hypothetical analogue format. Out with the chinagraph pencils and razor blades again?
@AudioMasterclass replies to @latheofheaven1017: Yes I think it was a Decca engineer who answered my question on how often there would be an edit. Average thirty seconds was the reply. This would have been the early days of digital when there was a lot more freedom in editing than on analogue so perhaps they were a little giddy on this new technology. DM
@chinmeysway replies to @latheofheaven1017: What type of edits? Curious as usually thatâs done by mixing engineers not mastering.
@AudioMasterclass replies to @latheofheaven1017: @@chinmeysway Editing the stereo recording for the best parts of the best takes. DM
@spectrelayer: "REmastered" - A process in which the quality of a previous recording is diminished while charging a premium price. That has been soooo true - sadly too many times! But, you may be surprised to learn that there is a fresh alternative offered by a venture that doesn't even bill the client until after the client is totally convinced in the improved sound. I.E: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBGaFjQeycM
@latheofheaven1017: 15IPS 1/2 inch analogue tape with Dolby SR played back on a Studer A80. Pretty much perfect. (Though even Rishi Sunak might blanche at the cost). But what would you play on it? How much content is available that was produced entirely in the analogue domain?
@AudioMasterclass replies to @latheofheaven1017: Funny thing is that with the amount of money some audiophiles spend they could afford the system youâve just described. DM
@latheofheaven1017 replies to @latheofheaven1017: @@AudioMasterclass Hehe. They'd still have hardly anything untainted by digitalness to play on it. I suppose they could hire people to steal the original masters, perhaps? đ
@joelcarson4602: The "Perfect Analog" medium would likely be some form of magnetic media based system, like a 10" or 12" magnetic disk in some sort of sealed carrier shell with the playback heads built in. Modern magnetic head design can place astounding amounts of digial information on the surfaces of hard disk media, surely such could be modified to place analog signals of such quality that they would qualify as "Perfect Analog" Now there might have to be digital tracking pulses on the disk to inform the mechanism where the analog goodness is located on the disc's surface, but that would not be part of the analog information. Blank discs could be equiped with record/playback heads to touch all the bases for such a format.
There, I've solved it, a larger, flat media that will invite album artwork, liner notes, a real physical, tangible object AND expensive exclusivity to appeal to the most discerning amoung us.
No applause, just throw money.
@catkeys6911: The current problem with analog (no matter how perfect) is in its reproduction. Unless you have a reel to reel tape player that's as expensive as a used car, and bulky tapes of your favorite music running at least at 15 IPS. Otherwise, you're stuck with vinyl, and its mechanical restrictions - a tiny diamond stylus on a miniscule metal shaft connected to a nearly microscopic coil, producing a miniscule voltage analogue "signal" that's been compressed in order for loud transients to NOT cause the stylus to jump out of its track - then restored per the RIAA equalization standard (adding more distortion).
Hence, DIGITAL - as imperfect as it currently is with it's current sampling rate not quite high enough to avoid the harsh high frequencies due to the digital squaring-off of the highest frequency waves. It's this too-low sampling rate that is the reason anyone would want a hissy, dynamic-muted vinyl disc.
@RacingAnt replies to @catkeys6911: Digital doesn't generate a squared off 20khz waveform. It generates a pure, distortion free, 20khz sine wave.
@catkeys6911 replies to @catkeys6911: That's not possible with the 44.1 Hz CD sampling rate. @@RacingAnt
@RacingAnt replies to @catkeys6911: @@catkeys6911 sampling for CD is 44.1khz, not 44.1hz, but nevermind.
Nyquist frequency for CD is 22khz. That means, any sine wave with a fundamental frequency less than that will be captured, and reproduced perfectly. The DAC and following filters do not create stepped waveforms. This has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of digital sound. A square wave is made up of an infinite sequence of sine waves of diminishing amplitude, summed to create the square wave, so will not get past the 22khz output filter. All that comes through is the sine wave.
@catkeys6911 replies to @catkeys6911: That was a mis-type, I know its 44.1 Kilohertz A good DAC is helpful, but sampling rate is sampling rate. If you only get, say 3 or 4 samples to reproduce a 12,000 hz- range sizzle of a cymbal, you're going to miss some data. It can get smoothed out so as not to sound harsh, but now you've added an artificial element by filtering out some of the waveform, no? @@RacingAnt
@RacingAnt replies to @catkeys6911: @@catkeys6911 CD can capture all of the shape and harmonics that make up the cymbal, right up to 22khz. Analogue cassette tape would capture the same harmonics, but up to 15khz or so, so less shape. A top-end turntable could maybe match the harmonics of CD, but at 70dB signal to noise, rather than 96dB, so there's going to be less information there. That "shape" is made up the same way as a square wave - a mix of frequencies. The ear can only hear those harmonics up to 20khz (most people it's way lower than this). Human's can't hear the "shape" of a sound with information above 20khz. So, CD is good enough. 24 bit, 96khz is way more than any other analogue source can match.
@snakeoilaudio: Digital for the mass market always was a very good idea and basically nobody doubts that. High End audio always was a niche market, there isn't a controversy here either. There are always people who are willing to pay insane amounts of money for something the majority of people can't understand, that true for records, but it is also true for wine, for meat, for watches, for paintings you name it.
Of course, the are records that sound terrible, even full analog ones and there are digital remastered records that sound great even though there was a D involved somewhere in the process because a 50grand studio DAC sounds different from a 300 quid DAC at home, who could have thought. This is all not controversial, so what's the point?
If you have a great recording and you play it on a good turntable not a 99 quid Tesco thing made in China but maybe on a 1000 quid Rega with a decent phono stage that is more than just a 30 Cent Op-Amp then it can sound phenomenal. Will it sound exactly like a CD or digital stream? No it will not. Now here is the real question, will it sound worse? Unfortunately, there is not a simple yes/no answer because in some areas digital has clearly some advantages (and nobody doubts that) but in some areas analog has it's advantages too, and I am not talking about a bigger sleeve but technical advantages in sound reproduction. If you for some reason prefer digital over analog then good for you but there are thousands of people who prefer analog. Obviously they are all within the group of these 1% of audiophiles and not in the group of 99% who only listen to music on their way to work.